38 Short Colt HS-6 experiment

[westczek]

I know 38 Short Colt loadings for USPSA or ICORE come up every once ina while. I thought I would share my recent experiments. I was working off what I have read here, but using the diffent powder... HS-6. I had bought the HS-6 for 9mm loads with 147 grn bullets. It has a slower burn rate than the W231 I liked, but still a ball powder which meters well, so I thought I would try it to see if there was much of a differnce.

On to 38 Short Colt. I'm working on a load for my S&W 686 with a 6" barrel. I bought some Starline 38 Short Colt brass. I wanted to load the same 158 grn moly coated round nose bullets I use for 38 Special minor loads. Many of you have suggested working from 9mm loading data. So I started with data I had for 9mm 147 grn lead bullets.

For dies I am using a 38 Special/357 mag sizing, 9mm bell, 9mm seating and 9mm taper crimp.

My first attempt was very conservative. I used the published starting load for HS-6, about 4.4 gns, for the 147 grn bullet. I seated to an OAL of 1.16" not nearly as deep as the published load data for 147 grn 9mm bullet. When cronographed, velocity averaged near 650 fps... whith 2 grns more HS-6 averaged about 700 fps. I was also getting powder residue dusting my cronograph at 8 ft away.

I revaluated. The 9mm bullets were getting seated much deeper. I decided to reduce OAL to 1.14". I also made sure I was gettin a snug taper crimp.

The new OAL of 1.14 with 4.6 grns of HS-6 got me up to an avergae 750 fps, but a wide range 704-787 fps. My next batch was 4.9 grns of HS-6, that got me above 800 fps, but not consistently. 5.2 grn of HS-6 got me well over 800 fps and the spread decreased, 853-898 fps.

These are all small batch tests, 5 to 10 rounds with each load. I want to focus on 5 grns of HS-6 and see if I can get that to work to my liking. Accuracy appears good at 25 yrds, but I wasn't doing serious accuracy work.

Any thoughts?

Westczek

[AzShooter]

Check those primers for safety. You are going way over and your OAL is very short for the 38 Short Cold. I use a longer bullet but keep my OAL to 1.16. When you press them in deaper you are doubling the pressure curve so you have to be careful.

Test your groups. Watch with different loads and when the groups open up you have exceded the range of that powder.

I've had best luck with 150 - 158 grain bullets and 3.7 grains of Unique and 3.6 grains of Solo 1000. Red Dot is also a very good powder for the 38 S C and there are old loads listed that make minor without exceding pressures.

4.8 of Power Pistol also worked and just made 129 pf.

These loads have worked well in my 627 and my 686. Please aproach them with caution. Start at least 1/2 grain lower and work up.

Hope this helps.

Edited June 30, 2010 by AzShooter

[westczek]

AZshooter,

Thanks for the advice. I was very concerned about pressure too. I've been inspecting the primers after every shot. I've seen photos of flowing or distorted primers in books. These look the same as my low power 38 Special loads or factory loads. Is there anything else I should look for? Also all cases extracted with no effort. Are you using lead bullets with a roll crimp?

Westczek

[AzShooter]

AZshooter,

Thanks for the advice. I was very concerned about pressure too. I've been inspecting the primers after every shot. I've seen photos of flowing or distorted primers in books. These look the same as my low power 38 Special loads or factory loads. Is there anything else I should look for? Also all cases extracted with no effort. Are you using lead bullets with a roll crimp?

Westczek

I'm using lead with a taper crimp. As long as you aren't getting flow or hard extraction you can keep increasing your load carefully.

I'm experimenting with a new bullet, 180 grain LBT that I'm casting myself. I've been trying to get 1 inch groups and have come close with a few loads that are hot but according to Veral Smith, the mold maker just keep going. You can load to the same as jacketed. Lead will give less pressure.

Best load so far with the 180 is 5.4 grains of Unique in the .38 case. It's hot, makes major easily and shoots into 1 inch at 25 from the rest. After I get the .38 figured out I'm going to try this bullet in the .38 Short Colt.

[Tom E]

Interesting. I use 38 special brass trimmed to .900", with Precision Bullets 147's (sized .358) at 1.200" oal. 3.9 grains of Solo 1000 is 900 fps for minor out of my 4" 627. Best accuracy (and softer recoiling) was same specs with 7.8 gr of AA#9 but it required cleaning the chambers after every stage

[westczek]

Tom E,

The case lenght you are using looks like it is between Short Colt and Long Colt. The main reason I'm playing with short colt is so I have less case to clear the cylinder before a reload.

Westczek

[Tom E]

Tom E,

The case lenght you are using looks like it is between Short Colt and Long Colt. The main reason I'm playing with short colt is so I have less case to clear the cylinder before a reload.

Westczek

Yes. .900" is pretty much the longest case that the ejector stroke will push clear of the chamber. Virtually the same length as a .45 acp.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Tom E

[DougCarden]

Back in the day.....lord.... I am only 40....gaaaa....The first computer forum was Shooters.com....put up by a friend, Phil Reed....RIP buddy...

Anyhoo there was a gentleman who was experimenting with short colt and Unique....and lost at least one cylinder. No one got hurt, but that story instilled some caution when working up short colt loads.

I decided to use 9mm load data, as the internal volume is very close. If you use 9mm data as a close starting point, and start out in the middle of the load data and work up you should be fine.

Federal primers always look bad due to the soft cup material, but you will know when you are getting up there by the "short colt" stamping in the brass pushing out and expanding a little bit, distorting the ring around the primer....oooh...say that fast 3 times....

The best thing to do is always moonclip the ammo, there is a difference, and check the primers one shot at a time. If the primer smear looks ok, then pay attention to the extraction, and extract it quickly after firing, when the last couple of cases are hot. Once you hit the pressure threshold, the cases will expand enough that they will "stick" in the chamber, or take a hard push or rap on the extractor rod to eject the cases. Then you are there and need to back down.

Best accuracy in the cartridge seems to be the mid range powders, like W231, VV320, Titegroup, VV330/40, and Solo 1000. Best accuracy has been the .356-.358 sized bullets 158-170gr probably due to the twist of the SW barrels.

Have fun, but go slow....if you don't see your powder listed, it could be because we haven't tried it, or we did and didn't have a good result. That is why this forum is so important to share info from fellow shooters!

Good luck and have fun experimenting!

DougC

[Joe4d]

HS6 is a slower pistol powder, completely unsuited for your application. As you saw at low pressures and volumes it isnt consistent and leaves unburned powder. It just isnt designed or efficient at low pressure. There are much better powders, your primers, bullets, and time would be more productive if you started with a more suitable powder.

[westczek]

Just to ask the question a differnt way...

When loading 38 Short Colt for use in a modern 357 Magnum revolver, arn't we just trying to approximate 9mm luger with a straight walled and rimmed case, instead of having the cylinder converted to 9mm luger? Is there a problem with looking at it this way?

I'm not real attached to HS-6 as a powder, except that I bought a pound of it when I was not able to find W231 and there was a fair amount of published data for HS-6 in 9mm luger. I now have an HS-6 38 Short Colt load that works and doesn't appear to have any negative signs, primers or extraction, the unburned powder went away with the deeper seating, 1.14" vs 1.16". If it was in a 9mm pistol I don't believe this load would even be +P.

Thanks

Westczek

[glockwerkes]

I'm glad I noticed this thread. If I should be RO'ing you at F'burg on Sunday, don't be surprised if I'm crouched behind you for cover!

Seriously though, if you would like to try some Solo 1000, I could bring you a sample on Sunday. I haven't tried it in .38's yet, but I still have a week and half to do load development for the PA Steel Challenge. No charge for a fellow wheel gunner. Let me know.

Rob

Edited July 2, 2010 by glockwerkes

[westczek]

Rob,

You would think I was loading these suckers up with plutonium... Don't worry I'll likely be using the non-thermal nuclear Unique fired 38 Specials I ussually use. I'm still not sure about the moonclips. The Starline brass is very loose on the 38/357 clips. One out of six rounds don't really seam like they will be able to stay put. If I go this route I will likely need to get the Heathco 38 Short Colt clips.

Westczek

[wide45]

I'll bet that HS-6 will never run clean enough to be revolver reliable. Crap under your extractor is in your future.

[Toolguy]

Hearthco has different ones. Tell them you need the ones for Starline brass and you will be happy. All the other 38 Starline brass will fit good too - 38 Special, 357 Mag, etc.