Fixed Time Scoring

[Yoda]

I would like to discuss IPSC rule 9.4.6.1 "Overtime shots ... will each be penalized the value of the maximum scoring hit available on that target, except in the case of disappearing targets"

I had a discussion about this topic with the RM on a level II match yesterday. We both must admit that English is not our native tongue. He reads in the quote above that the max. scoring value must be subtracted while I read that the highest scoring hit on that target must be subtracted. The confusion is caused by the word "available"

Imagine a target - Joe Shooter shoots his way and has one overtime shot. On the target we find 1 Charlie and 1 Delta. As RO I would subtract the Charlie from his score while the RM would subtract 5 points (the max. scoring value = Alpha) from the score. The older versions of MSS (eg. 6.3 or 6.4) have a column OT (Overtime Shots) just record the hits and number of OT and the MSS will calculate the proper score. See my test procedure a little further in this thread.

It is all about semantics ...

Question remains - how do YOU read this specific rule? Is it clear enough for everybody (including non-native English speaking shooters) or should IPSC adjust the verbiage to say what they mean it to say?

Edited January 26, 2004 by Yoda

[Flexmoney]

I read it as...if the target has part of the Alpha showing (available), then subtract the 5 points.

[MoNsTeR]

My reading of it is the same as yours, I would subtract the Charlie.

The idea is to delete the highest-valued hit from the target, on the assumption that that hit was the one that was fired "in overtime". If the intent was to induce a 5-point penalty, it would just say that.

[TheOtherErik]

Think of it as penalty, like hitting a no-shoot. Don't think of it as taking away a hit. The penalty in this case is 5 points.

[Nik Habicht]

I would like to discuss IPSC rule 9.4.6.1 "Overtime shots ... will each be penalized the value of the maximum scoring hit available on that target, except in the case of disappearing targets"

The key phrase is intended to be "value of the maximum scoring hit available." Not the value of the highest hit, but the value of the highest scoring zone that could have received a hit. If the target's got an A-zone, then the penalty's 5 points, regardless of whether the shooter actually shot an A. When we calculate the penalty for hits on a no-shoot target, we don't tally up the points, we penalize the hit at twice the value of the a-zone...

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

"Available" means, well, "available". It does not mean "achieved" or "actually scored". Hence if the guy shot a Charlie/Delta but the Alpha zone was "available", then the guy gets 5 points taken off for each OT shot, regardless of what he actually achieved (which could be 2 Misses).

POSTSCRIPT: The above statement correctly describes the consensus agreed by the 2003 Rules Committee when preparing the 2004 Rulebooks but, as it is in variance to former IPSC practice, it is subject to change. Please check the IROA FAQ on the IPSC website for a possible announcement.

However if you want a good way to teach and help your students remember, try my method: If a sexy young lady in a mini-skirt, fishnet stockings and stiletto heels, is standing on a street corner chewing gum, and she asks you "Looking for a date, honey?", she's made it perfectly clear that she's "available" for, um, "scoring", and the nice policeman will give her the same penalty whether somebody scores or not.

And yes, I try to make my RO classes as fun as possible but, no, I don't wear fishnets during the class for demo ...............

................ unless they ask me really nicely and pay the usual $100

[Yoda]

"Available" means, well, "available". It does not mean "achieved" or "actually scored". Hence if the guy shot a Charlie/Delta but the Alpha zone was "available", then the guy gets 5 points taken off for each OT shot, regardless of what he actually achieved (which could be 2 Misses).

Master Vince,

thank you for your explanation. I still respectfully disagree with it as (IMHO) it is not in line with the intent of scoring Fixed Time , nor is it supported by the scoring programs available (pun intended). The rule speaks of HIT, not scoring zone. My understanding of scoring Fixed Time exercises which do not use disappearing targets is that the shooter may not have heard the end-beep or that his shot just falls after the end-beep. It would be fair to take away the highest hit on the Target engaged last as it is not possible to reconstruct which hit was caused by the last shot fired. I do think it is not fair to penalize him with a larger penalty than achieved.

The penalty as you describe (subtracting 5 points) is also not in line with ALL other penalties which are the double value of the highest scoring hit (= -10 for PE, Mikes. PT hits or -20 for Mikes on double value Poppers). Please explain how to register and process the -5 points in MSS or WinMSS. You cannot enter -1 Alpha

From the first reactions on my initial post I read that it is not as clear as we wish. After we have established the final meaning of 9.4.6.1 I would like to suggest rephrasing of 9.4.6.1 to make crystal clear how to score and process it.

[Vince Pinto]

My dear green friend,

OK, let me play Devil's Advocate (after that, we can play Scrabble or Monopoly)

What if the competitor is, say, aiming at T3 (where his first shot is a C), but his OT shot strays in his "time panic" and it hits T2 (where he already has 2 Delta)?

BTW, I don't think the current release of WinMSS has Fixed Time yet, but I suggest you do a test with MSS using a dummy stage and marking a ficticious shooter with 1 OT shot to see how many points are deducted.

This is kinda exciting, n'cest pas ?

[GvU]

Vince,

The wording in the text is HIT available, not scoring value available.

I must agree that the interpretation of someone with reasonably persuasive stature (like Vince????) might throw someone off. Re-reading the text it realy refers to "hit on the target" instead of "value on the target".

Meaning, when there is 1 targets requiring 2 shots and on the target there is CD where one is overtime, the score is 1 D. (all according to the rulebook text, not possible intent)

DVC, John

Dutch mob? Thanks Vince!

[Yoda]

What if the competitor is, say, aiming at T3 (where his first shot is a C), but his OT shot strays in his "time panic" and it hits T2 (where he already has 2 Delta)?

BTW, I don't think the current release of WinMSS has Fixed Time yet, but I suggest you do a test with MSS using a dummy stage and marking a ficticious shooter with 1 OT shot to see how many points are deducted.

Your humble servant speaking, oh Lord,

I'm sorry to disappoint you but MSS6.6b does not support Standard Exercises Fixed Time as per 14th Edition Rulebook version 2003. As MSS is not supported anymore it will not be fixed - leaving Standard Fixed Time stages only to be scored with the (to be updated) WinMSS. However - I will conduct a test with an older version of MSS which I do have at home and report back to you. If memory serves me right you have no possibility to enter overtime shots in MSS - will be tested!!

Speaking of scoring your evil casus - per 9.4.5.2 Joe Shooter will get the two highest hits on T2 + a PE for extra hit. On T3 I score the highest hit (C in your case) and one OT for the stage. The older versions of MSS (6.3 or 6.4) will then subtract the highest score from that stage.

It is possible to monitor which targets are being engaged, it is very difficult to keep track of the hits - which is not the responsibility of the RO. The primary focus is the competitor with the gun and all safety aspects which come with our sport. If the targets are close enough an experienced RO can also notice hits in his periferal vision, but as this is not consistent among all circumstances it should not be mentioned or enforced by the rules. Think of all the Old FAT bastards who need reading glasses I do not care about reading glasses, I need my glasses ALL THE TIME! As MSS will subtract the highest score from the stage there is no need to identify on which target the competitor fired the OT shot.

Edited January 26, 2004 by Yoda

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Let me start with a disclaimer. When I give responses to IPSC rule questions here (and in other forums), all I can really do is tell you the way things are and, in this case, we deduct 5 points for each OT shot, regardless of what may or may not actually appear on the target, and I hope Yoda's experiment with an older version of MSS will bear me out.

Now whether or not we can improve the language of the rule, or if we can be more "equitable", is another matter entirely, and that is something to be considered by the Rules Committee during their next round (probably later this year), but I will certainly take notes and raise the issue at the appropriate time.

However this particular case is one where we followed the USPSA lead. As you know, IPSC dropped Fixed Time for four years, but it was re-introduced by popular demand. To be perfectly frank, I hadn't shot a FT stage in such a long time, I was rusty on the penalties, so we were guided by the USPSA application, and our old mate John Amidon assured us that the USPSA deducts 5 points for each OT shot, so it would've been silly for IPSC to take a different route.

Anyway, let's wait for Yoda to check that the old version of MSS supports the "deduct 5 points for each OT shot" we are currently applying to this particular rule. If it is indeed the case, then that's the way it's alwaye been and the argument to only "deduct the highest hit actually achieved" would actually be a proposed rule change, not a re-interpretation. Of course we'll still look at the language again.

Of course Yoda's argument about the OT penalty applying at the shooting position, not during scoring, supports my argument. When the OT shot occurs, there's no guarantee (in fact it's probably unlikely), that the RO knows where that particular shot landed, so he must presumptively deduct 5 points at the start position, then score the best two on the targets during scoring.

So, Yoda. What's happening dude? The troops are restless

[Yoda]

When I give responses to IPSC rule questions here (and in other forums), all I can really do is tell you the way things are and, in this case, we deduct 5 points for each OT shot, regardless of what may or may not actually appear on the target, and I hope Yoda's experiment with an older version of MSS will bear me out.

[snip]

However this particular case is one where we followed the USPSA lead. As you know, IPSC dropped Fixed Time for four years, but it was re-introduced by popular demand. To be perfectly frank, I hadn't shot a FT stage in such a long time, I was rusty on the penalties, so we were guided by the USPSA application, and our old mate John Amidon assured us that the USPSA deducts 5 points for each OT shot, so it would've been silly for IPSC to take a different route.

Anyway, let's wait for Yoda to check that the old version of MSS supports the "deduct 5 points for each OT shot" we are currently applying to this particular rule. If it is indeed the case, then that's the way it's alwaye been and the argument to only "deduct the highest hit actually achieved" would actually be a proposed rule change, not a re-interpretation. Of course we'll still look ar the language again.

[snip]

So, Yoda. What's happening dude? The troops are restless 

Vince,

please do not take offense in my slow typing, one hand holding my evening meal, the other switching from one keyboard to an older one, one eye to each of the screens

I've tested this case with MSS 6.3 and must change my previous posting a little - MSS does create a column for Overtime Shots on the scoresheet if you enter a Standard Exercise with Fixed Time Scoring. It also blocks out the Misses on the scoresheet.

I made a small stage containing 2 targets, which required 2 shots each. Joe Shooter (Open Major) is competitor #1. When you look at the enter screen for stage score (option 5-2-1 for the old MSS keyboard junkies ) you can see the PE and Extra Shot field with value -10 listed next to it. Overtime Shot is also listed, but without value. When entering a simulated score of 4 C and 1 OT nothing happens untill you confirm the entry (no time to be entered). After confirmation the highest hit (in this case 4 points) is subtracted and clearly listed as -4 in the screen.

When entering 1 C, 3 D and 2 OT the two highest hits (-4 and -2) are subtracted and -6 is clearly listed in the screen. So - the way MSS 6.3 handles Fixed Time scoring supports my initial posting.

Q.E.D. - sorry Vince, I did not bear you out on this one. You still owe me a beer and pizza next week . We then can discuss the proposed language for making this case crystal clear to the IPSC crowd.

[Yoda]

Which makes me wonder ... any EZWinscore wizards online? How do EZscore or EZWinscore handle this? Can you enter OT as score? Do they do the same thing as MSS and subtract the highest score achieved or do they subtract the highest score possible?

Enquiring minds ....

[ErikW]

You enter a number in the overtime shot field and EZWinScore subtracts 5 points for each.

[Vince Pinto]

Yoda,

Win, lose or draw, it's always a pleasure for me to pay for any meal we have together, but I hope you don't mind if we have chicken wings and a coke at ssssHOOTERS instead 'coz beer gives me gas.

Thanks for conducting your research and I'm willing to humbly stand corrected that MSS6.3 deducts "1 highest shot actually achieved for each OT shot fired" but it applies to the whole target array. By this I mean that if you have, say, three targets in a Fixed Time stage, you deduct "1 highest shot actually achieved anywhere on the three target array for each OT shot fired", because we don't know where the OT shot hit (especially for longer +25m strings).

In practice, this means the competitor might have been aiming at T3, and he achieved 1C within time and 1C with his OT shot on T3, but if T1 or T2 has an Alpha, then we (and MSS6.3), will deduct 1 Alpha because that's the "highest shot actually achieved anywhere on the three target array".

Do you agree? If not, (pretty) please do another test with MSS.

Moreover, as our young friend Erik has confirmed, the USPSA system deducts 5 points regardless of what's visible on any target in the array, and that's why this old man was dazed and confused (honestly, it wasn't the rum).

The other thing I'd like to mention is that Fixed Time was always supposed to use disappearing targets, so originally there was no such thing as an OT shot because the targets would retreat at the end of the Fixed Time allowed. Hence if there was no target face to shoot, you couldn't get a score, so there's no need to deduct anything. Having said that, I wonder how many stages around the world today are incorrectly handled?

By that, I mean if you're using disappearing targets, the RO must not count "OT" shots - they simply don't exist when disappearing targets are used.

It was only when people just wanted to use a timer with a "Start and Stop" signal, that we had to introduce an OT penalty, and it's only when using a timer in this fashion do OT shots get recorded. In retrospect, we need to spell this out in the rulebook but, in the interim, I'll work on getting a Q&A written for the IROA FAQ page.

Your further comments welcome, after you finish your homework

POSTSCRIPT: Erik, thanks for the confirmation. Now I'm really in deep doo-doo.

[Yoda]

I hope you don't mind if we have chicken wings and a coke at ssssHOOTERS instead 'coz beer gives me gas.

Thanks for conducting your research and I'm willing to humbly stand corrected that MSS6.3 deducts "1 highest shot actually achieved for each OT shot fired" but it applies to the whole target array. By this I mean that if you have, say, three targets in a Fixed Time stage, you deduct "1 highest shot actually achieved anywhere on the three target array for each OT shot fired", because we don't know where the OT shot hit (especially for longer +25m strings).

In practice, this means the competitor might have been aiming at T3, and he achieved 1C within time and 1C with his OT shot on T3, but if T1 or T2 has an Alpha, then we (and MSS6.3), will deduct 1 Alpha because that's the "highest shot actually achieved anywhere on the three target array".

Do you agree?

Your further comments welcome, after you finish your homework 

Location is up to you - I agree with your proposal

I agree with your statement that the highest hit from the stage (target array) will be subtracted from the scores by MSS. I already edited the relevant part of my previous postings.

On a side note - MSS DOES recalculate the overall stage results. The results are being factored which is in contradiction with 9.2.4.1

[...] The overall stage results are not factored, and competitors are ranked by the actual nett points achieved by them. In MSS the winner gets awarded the maximum number of points available with all other competitors ranked and relatively to the winner with the recalculated stage points. In MSS (the "old" days) Comstock, Virginia and Fixed Time were handled the very same way. Was this deviation also based upon USPSA input?

Question for the EZWinscore wizards (Erik, where are you?) - how does EZwinscore calculate this? Ranking by nett achieved points or recalculation to max points available?

Another point to discuss ....

[Yoda]

In addition to my previous posting a solution for MSS and WinMSS users who want to score Fixed Time according to the IPSC rulebook:

* Enter a dummy competitor for this stage with max score - this will keep all other competitors at their original points.

* Instruct the crew who runs this stage to manually subtract the highest hit(s) scored in case of OT shot(s) and NOT enter OT shots on the scoresheet. Other possibility is to have them score the hits as shot, note the number of OT shot(s) in the remark area and have the Stats crew handle this. Whatever way chosen to handle this - communicate it thouroughly with your crew to avoid any misunderstandings which might lead to unnecessary discussions, irritation and re-shoots.

Untill Chris and his WinMSS development team have updated WinMSS this will do the trick. As MSS will not be updated you can use the procedure mentioned above to correctly score Fixed Time stages with MSS 6.6b

Disclaimer: this procedure is only valid until the IPSC Rules Committee has reached consensus and communicated their verdict through the proper channels after which approval by the IPSC Executive Counsil / IROA and/or General Assembly might be needed.

[Vince Pinto]

<groan> I knew Fixed Time would be the death of me, sooner or later.</groan>

OK, it's time for a "come to Jesus" chat with The Big Kahuna. If I don't respond within 24 hours, send paramedics

[ErikW]

EZWinScore just assigns straight points with no factoring and no stage winner bonus. The points you earned become your match points. For example, out of a 80 point stage:

Stage No: 5 Hoser Heaven 
Place  Name  No.  Class  Div  Points  Pen  Time  HF  Stage Pts  % 
1   Wayne  41  A  Open  75  0  0  75.0000  75.0000  100.00% 
2   David  11  B  Open  72  0  0  72.0000  72.0000  96.00% 
3   Steve  47  M  Open  69  0  0  69.0000  69.0000  92.00%

[Vince Pinto]

Erik,

Thanks again for your input - it's really very helpful.

It definitely appears that IPSC and the USPSA were miles apart on the handling of Fixed Time and, frankly, I didn't realise the extent at the time the matter was discussed, but I can confirm that the consensus reached was to adopt the existing USPSA protocols. However as you can see from some of the comments here, it's not been so well received.

Having said that, I don't think it's a major issue - it's just different - and it applies to all competitors equally. Anyway, Kees and I (and others) will follow up the matter with our colleagues, and we'll see how to handle this matter.

Personally though, I wish Fixed Time had remained in the closet where we tried to hide it a few years back

[hoser]

Vince, Vince, Vince! You really don't want to hide Fixed Time do you? Once in awhile a Fixed Time course of fire is really fun.

EZWinScore just deducts any overtime shots as -5 per shot, the same as any other penalty (except -5 instead of -10, of course). The targets are scored normally, best hits score, extra hits penalized, etc. Score sheets for Fixed Time should have a box where overtime shots are recorded and they are then entered into EZWinScore.

Arnie

[GvU]

Well, Vince may be hiding from fixed time.

DVC, John

[Garfield]

Well,

I was just planning a fixed-time practice stage for our club, and after entering it in WinMSS, I noticed strange things. For instance: in the stage briefing, the time is not listed ! And there was more, but at that point I remembered having seen some discussion about FT and (Win)MSS, which took place during my vacation.

Personally I think FT stages can be fun. Specifically for training purposes (to get new guys to speed up a bit), but also on matches the occasional FT stage here and there can be fun.

Anyway, I am quite anxious for any updates on this matter, as I just started doing all the scoring for our club in WinMSS

[Vince Pinto]

Garfield,

IPSC has decided not to change the status quo which is currently dictated in the IPSC January 2004 Edition rulebook. In other words, we've effectively adopted the USPSA methodology and we're not going to bother to reinstate the former IPSC methodology. Yes, it's different, but it's the same for all competitors.

Bottom line: This means OT shots will be penalised minus 5 points, regardless of what hits might be visible on the targets, and the calculations should (I hope and pray) already be programmed into WinMSS.

Edited February 24, 2004 by Vince Pinto

[james h]

may i suggest a way round the inequitable penalty problem.

if the brief was something like:

after the signal the competitor must activate the turning targets and shoot them as and when seen.

provided the stop signal was after the targets had disappeared then very few people (hopefully none) would have overtime shots. ie a 10 second time for a 5 second target exposure.and so no problem with unfair penalties

or maybe thats not practical

j