Rules For Mag Safety Equiped Pistols

[Scalce]

Where is the formal rule documented when it comes to the proper clearing and making safe of a pistol that has an internal mag safety?

Thanks

[Jim Watson]

It is not in the rule book or in the "clarifications" on the IDPA board that I can find.

That said, I require in order to completely clear the gun, that a shooter show me an empty chamber, show me an empty magazine, insert it in the gun and dryfire the hammer down. Then remove the empty magazine and holster the gun with hammer down and magazine well empty.

[Scalce]

Thanks for the reply.

I follow your process as well but I had an incident recently where a shooter was arguing with me about it and stated that he has never had to insert an empty mag and drop the striker in the two years he had his pistol and shooting local matches.

I just find that hard to believe and I also wanted the official ruling so I can print it out to have on hand.

Not that I should need to explain something as simple as this especially since it is a safety violation in general for a cold range.

[Steve J]

Scalce, here is a thread on the IDPA forum http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/6164?page=1. There is a lot of extra noise in the thread about a similar argument, but the bottom line is that the rule book says "hammer down" which everyone understands to be a hard hammer strike on an empty chamber as the final insurance of an empty chamber. Shooters can't just "decock" or claim "hammer won't fall without a magazine inserted". You have to make the hammer fall before holstering.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Steve J

[Scalce]

Yeah I was definately frustrated to have someone argue with me about this even after repeatedly asking them to go speak to the Match Director if they wanted clarification as I was not going to debate a safety issue regardless of what has happened in the past.

It eventually ended in a DQ as the person would not drop it and started disrupting the squad and me.

[Scalce]

Thanks for the link since this is the guy.

O this should be interesting.

[lugnut]

It eventually ended in a DQ as the person would not drop it and started disrupting the squad and me.

I'm assuming that was because as far as you (the SO) were concerned the gun wasn't clear and he holstered and just left? I guess you can't issue the "Range is safe" command if he doesn't drop the striker...

EDITED for wrong command.

Edited June 16, 2010 by lugnut

[jmorris]

I had an incident recently where a shooter was arguing with me about it and stated that he has never had to insert an empty mag and drop the striker in the two years he had his pistol and shooting local matches.

No need to argue, just tell him as the RO you tell everyone “I see clear. Slide, hammer, holster.” and to compete they must comply. Simple and fair.

[Steve J]

Thanks for the link since this is the guy.

O this should be interesting.

I thought it might be. Good reading and mind your blood pressure.

[Scalce]

The sad part about this is I dedicate my time to help run the match and make sure everyone is safe and has a good time.

I can't even address all of the incorrect information in that thread right now.

[Steve J]

The sad part about this is I dedicate my time to help run the match and make sure everyone is safe and has a good time.

I can't even address all of the incorrect information in that thread right now.

I understand. Hang in there. We do the best we can to educate and keep people safe. I've seen worse. People with Berettas who don't want to decock before holstering because of the DA first shot and people with 1911s who don't want to apply the thumb safety before holstering. Both practices are egregiously unsafe. I only hope that after they've been on my squad they understand. I know previous SO/ROs have not caught that they are holstering an unsafe pistol.

[Scalce]

I am so disgusted by this I can't even put it into words at the moment.

[DWFAN]

people with 1911s who don't want to apply the thumb safety before holstering.

[ninefan]

I had an incident recently where a shooter was arguing with me about it and stated that he has never had to insert an empty mag and drop the striker in the two years he had his pistol and shooting local matches.

No need to argue, just tell him as the RO you tell everyone “I see clear. Slide, hammer, holster.” and to compete they must comply. Simple and fair.

That is not currently the proper range command.

It is now "If clear, hammer down, holster."

[Steve J]

I had an incident recently where a shooter was arguing with me about it and stated that he has never had to insert an empty mag and drop the striker in the two years he had his pistol and shooting local matches.

No need to argue, just tell him as the RO you tell everyone “I see clear. Slide, hammer, holster.” and to compete they must comply. Simple and fair.

That is not currently the proper range command.

It is now "If clear, hammer down, holster."

You are wrong, ninefan. You are talking USPSA commands. This is the IDPA rules forum.

[Steve J]

people with 1911s who don't want to apply the thumb safety before holstering.

Yeah, I know. It was a young, newish shooter who had started with "safe" action guns. It was awkward for him (through lack of practice) to manipulate it with his strong hand thumb. Even after I showed him how to draw and the proper thumb-on-safety grip, he still flicked it off with his weak hand. I worry about what he did at the next match.

[jmorris]

That is not currently the proper range command.

It is now "If clear, hammer down, holster."

Didn't see that in the rule book but if I don't see that your clear you don't get the other two commands. If you argued with me then I'd just DQ you Kidding...or am I.

[Ahab]

I shoot a gun with a mag disconnect safety. If I'm at a major match with a different SO on each stage, before the SO/RO tells me to load and make ready, I tell them that I have a gun with a mag disconnect safety, and to properly hammer down I'll have to insert an empty magazine. 99% of the time this isn't a problem, as at the conclusion of the stage most SOs will have me unload, show clear, slide forward, show them an empty mag, insert, hammer down, eject mag, etc.

[Strick]

Not really the topic of the thread here but it seems that you DQ'ed the guy even though he followed your instructions when you gave them. It looks to me that since he was discussing it (with other shooters, not you) you got defensive because you realized that you didn't follow procedures that you deem safe.

[Steve Koski]

The one time I DQ'd a guy for unsportsmanlike conduct, I warned him ahead of time. "If you continue to argue with me about this you will be disqualified."

It didn't slow him down though, but it gave him fair warning.

[Scalce]

Not really the topic of the thread here but it seems that you DQ'ed the guy even though he followed your instructions when you gave them. It looks to me that since he was discussing it (with other shooters, not you) you got defensive because you realized that you didn't follow procedures that you deem safe.

You're right, it isn't the topic of this thread.

[ninefan]

You are wrong, ninefan. You are talking USPSA commands. This is the IDPA rules forum.

Doh, so true. Didn't see that when I clicked on the post. My bad.

I will point out while I'm here that the USPSA rules don't cover this situation very well either... or at all that I can find in the rulebook.

[Chris Christian]

Current Rule Book... page 8 Sec S.8 "The normal condition of pistols not actually engaged is holstered and unloaded, with hammer down and magazine removed."

Page 11 Range Commands C18... H. Unload and show clear. I. Slide down or cylinder closed. J. Hammer down.

That seems pretty cut and dried. How an SO arrives at that condition with a competitor is pretty much left up to the SO. I run squads with Browning HP shooters and a few other guns with mag safeties. I've yet to run into a shooter that wouldn't stick an empty (and I will inspect it) magazine into a gun to drop the hammer after the unload and show clear process. If I ever did, and they didn't realize the wisdom or authority inherent in the above Rules sections, I would acquaint them with the DQ that results from a FWSO violation.

Chris Christian

[Dragoon]

I used to run a S&W 5906 in IPSC Production Division. On the LAMR command, I would initially load the chamber with a 'Barney Mag' with one round in it. I would then hand the empty mag to the RO and tell him/her that I would need it at the end of the stage. (I would then finish loading with a mag filled to capacity) This ensured that the RO knew it was a empty mag that I was insertig to drop the hammer. This worked well for me and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend other shooters running guns with a mag disconnect to do the same.

[Boats]

I shoot my Browning High Power IDPA couple times a year just for the fun of it. Always tell the RSO before Load and Make ready it has a Mag Disconnect and ask them how they want me to clear the gun, and do whatever they say. Most times it's an extra mag carried by the RSO and used to drop the hammer only. I keep one with a piece of Orange tape on the follower to easily identify it as the drop hammer mag.

As a rule it's not good to argue with any match official. They are volunteers trying there best to do the job. On the Shooters side increase in tension and stress from arguments over minor issues is not good for your performance. To shoot well you need to think about shooting not hot button issues.

Boats