Is this legal

[3gunner]

If I convert my CZ-75 sa with comp hammer to a double action with the CZ-85 trigger, will it be legal for production. I just prefer the single action frame and safeties.

If not my only other choice is the Shadow, but I did not want a real heavy gun.

[Skydiver]

See page 5 of "Productions Rules Revisions - effective July 1, 2009": http://uspsa.org/rules/2009_Production_Rules_Revisions.pdf

Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OEM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OEM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers.

Since the CZ-85 is on the production list you should be okay. Remember that the new rules put the weight of proving legality on the shooter, rather than match officials. Bring your papers. :-)

Quick question: Why not simply use the CZ-75B double action trigger instead of of the CZ-85 trigger? Are the triggers shapes that different? As far as know the difference between the 75SA and 75B is the the trigger and the disconnector.

[eerw]

frames are different between a polycoat 75B and a polycoat 75B SA

trigger is no problem. factory part on a legal production gun

question would be is a 75B SA ( different frame style ) be legal as a DA/SA gun ( factory parts ).

but before you answer. CZ also makes a version of the 75b stainless and 75b stainless elite with the upswept beavertail. which would be the stainless equivalent of a polycoat 75B SA converted to DA/SA trigger action.

[Skydiver]

I learned something new: I didn't know that the 75B SA and 75B had different frame shapes.

So the follow from the CZ-USA product page is incorrect:

The CZ 75 B SA (Single Action) is identical to the CZ 75 B in all aspects, except that it has a single action trigger mechanism and a drop free magazine. The trigger is a straight blade type and is adjustable for over travel. This version is perfect for sport shooting.

Anyway, eerw leads to the correct question of whether the 75B SA being on the production list or not.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Skydiver

[sfinney]

I think the problem is techniclly the CZ-75B SA, by name, is not on the list (even though it shares DNA with other CZ-75 pistols that are). Add what ever DA parts you want to it, its still not on the list, kind of hard to get past that I think. "SA" is engraved on the slide.

[eerw]

just for fun..

75B stainless with upswept beavertail

Shadow shares the same beavertail shape

75B stainless with original beavertail shape

75B SA converted to DA/SA.

85 combat

75B

[J-Hon]

I have a similar issue with this pistol:

It's a SA converted to DA, with all the trimmings.

While there really is no difference between most of the CZ's and the SA (given that they all share parts, the only thing you couldn't get on a B that you could on a SA is the non-scallaped slide), from my understanding (and this isn't coming down from Amidon or anything), because the gun specially says "SA" on the slide, it's illegal. It's quite the bummer for me, because I built this gun specifically for USPSA production a couple years ago before the rule change. Granted I've never had anyone say anything to me about it, and I wouldn't shoot the pistol at anything but a local match where there is no prize table (my way of justifying it I guess), but I still think technically it would bump me out of production.

Now my question is.... what happens if I were to slap a Shadow upper on this pistol? Would that be legal?

[Walküre]

Now my question is.... what happens if I were to slap a Shadow upper on this pistol? Would that be legal?

No.

The slides do not match exactly and thus would be out; the frame isn't approved anyway, which is the real issue.

Keep in mind that you can't technically run an alternative "approved" top end on a non-matching "approved" lower anyway. Look up some former rulings from NROI on people wanting to swap Glock uppers between frames - it's always been a no-go as far as I can tell. (ex - even though a G34 and G17 have identical frames, putting a G34 top end on a "G17 frame" or a G17 top on a "G34 frame" is technically not allowed.) But as the Glock situation illustrates, realistically it would be rather hard to prove that the "parts gun" is not really whatever it appears to be, if all of the parts are identical in appearance.

The problem is very clearly in the SA's frame. The newer stainless models feature what appears to be the same exact frame (I haven't had the chance to examine them side-by-side, so I don't know if they really are 1:1) - but they are stainless, and the two are easily distinguishable because of that fact. The 75BΩ features a beavertailed frame similar to the SA frame, but it has a flatter frontstrap and different pin holes for the Omega trigger system, thus again being immediately distinguishable (I'm not sure if the 75BΩ ever got USPSA approval anyway).

In short, there is currently nothing that you could build on an SA frame that would match the configuration of a Production-approved pistol. (And thus be able to "slip under the radar" in most cases despite its technical ineligibility.)

[3gunner]

Dang, that helps a lot. It looks like it would be cheaper just to get a Shadow.

J-hon, I like your gun... alot

[R. Batt]

I had the same question a year or so ago. I sent John A. an e-mail and as far as I understood him it would be okay to do this. That being said, the whole issue is pretty grey and what John gave me was his opinion, not an official ruling.

The production rules state that you can make a Glock "C" model legal by replacing the barrel. This gun would still have the 'C' on the slide, but would be legal so the slide markings shouldn't be a problem. Like Walküre said, there are CZ's on the list that have the upswept beaver tail, but they aren't exact matches. I'm not shooting this gun in production, but if I did I'd carry pics of the Stainless and Omega frames and a copy of John's e-mail with me. I can try to find it if you would like a copy.

[BayouSlide]

If the opinion is more than a year old, don't rely on it. And only published interpretations count (Front Sight or uspsa.org). The Production rules were clarified on June 25, 2009. And, as stated below, it requires a "specific rules clause or published interpretation". (bold type throughout is my addition for emphasis)

From the NROI Interpretation for the Production Division Equipment Rules (Appendix D4) June 25, 2009:

"The burden of responsibility is on the shooter to ensure that his/her equipment is

compliant with these provisions. If a modification is disputed – either by a Match

Official or a competitor, under 11.1.2 and 11.7 – the competitor may be required to

provide evidence of a specific clause in the rules or published NROI rulings which

specifically authorizes the modification."

"21. Authorized Modifications (strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines)

Please note that, during a match, a shooter

may be required to demonstrate that their

gun is in compliance with Division rules by

identifying a specific rules clause or

published interpretation which authorizes

any disputed modification. If the shooter

cannot identify an authorizing rules-clause

or published interpretation, the RM shall

rule that the modification is PROHIBITED

for Production use and shall move the

shooter to Open Division."

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate tipos typos!

Edited June 30, 2010 by BayouSlide

[GeneBray]

The simple answer to the question is to ask Amidon. If he says it is okay, and can modify the pistol be sure to do it exactly like Amidon said was okay and keep a copy of the e-mail with you at matches.

[Philo_Beddoe]

Who is Amidon? And how can I email him?

I have both a CZ 75 omega and a CZ 75 SA that I would like to convert to SA/DA and use in USPSA production.

Is the 75b Omega legal?

Would the 75b SA converted to DA/SA be legal?

How exactly is the custom hammer legal, its not a factory part, or is it?

[mdschappell]

I believe you will find that unless the gun you are converting is on the production list, anything you do to it will not make it legal for production. Converting your single action gun to a DA/SA still will not change it from what it was originally manufactured as. In the eyes of the USPSA, the SA model will always be an SA model, even if it is converted and contains exactly the same parts as an approved model.

[Torogi]

Do what i did, sell the 75b SA and get yourself SPO1

kidding aside, just most of the guys said, 75B SA is not on the list, so even if you convert the SA to DA/SA, it is still not on the list.

NOW, if you convert your lowers to DA/SA, AND change the slide to the one that says 75B, no SA, then i think that is legal. you have a 75B slide, and DA/SA trigger. but that is more work.

last time i checked SA's comes only in 40 S&W. i planned to shoot my 75B SA, convert it to DA/SA, then shoot minor 40s, it will be soft but instead, i sold it and got an SP01.

[Philo_Beddoe]

Do what i did, sell the 75b SA and get yourself SPO1

kidding aside, just most of the guys said, 75B SA is not on the list, so even if you convert the SA to DA/SA, it is still not on the list.

NOW, if you convert your lowers to DA/SA, AND change the slide to the one that says 75B, no SA, then i think that is legal. you have a 75B slide, and DA/SA trigger. but that is more work.

last time i checked SA's comes only in 40 S&W. i planned to shoot my 75B SA, convert it to DA/SA, then shoot minor 40s, it will be soft but instead, i sold it and got an SP01.

I got this email from Armidon today.

The CZ75 B SA is legal as long as it has the conversion to da/sa as the hammer must be down for the first shot and no single action only handguns allowed, it has the same weights as the CZ75B.

John

So a 75b SA converted to DA/SA is legal as long as it makes weight.

[eerw]

Do what i did, sell the 75b SA and get yourself SPO1

kidding aside, just most of the guys said, 75B SA is not on the list, so even if you convert the SA to DA/SA, it is still not on the list.

NOW, if you convert your lowers to DA/SA, AND change the slide to the one that says 75B, no SA, then i think that is legal. you have a 75B slide, and DA/SA trigger. but that is more work.

last time i checked SA's comes only in 40 S&W. i planned to shoot my 75B SA, convert it to DA/SA, then shoot minor 40s, it will be soft but instead, i sold it and got an SP01.

I got this email from Armidon today.

The CZ75 B SA is legal as long as it has the conversion to da/sa as the hammer must be down for the first shot and no single action only handguns allowed, it has the same weights as the CZ75B.

John

So a 75b SA converted to DA/SA is legal as long as it makes weight.

that is cool. also interesting ruling..but what he has ruled before the current rule change.

[J-Hon]

Oh snap, so I didn't waste a bunch of money building this thing.... awesome!

Dood, you totally need to PDF that email and host it up somewhere where us CZ guys can download a copy of it!

[Philo_Beddoe]

Oh snap, so I didn't waste a bunch of money building this thing.... awesome!

Dood, you totally need to PDF that email and host it up somewhere where us CZ guys can download a copy of it!

I made a PDF, I removed my name and email address how would I host it?

[Torogi]

that is a very interesting ruling. but it makes sense though, once you have converted the CZ75B SA to double action, then practically it is a CZ75B. I dont think there is a difference on the slide other than its name as CZ75B SA which is again not on the list. I've read there is a minor diff between the slides but i forgot what it was. Still, this is a very interesting ruling.

[Nik Habicht]

Oh snap, so I didn't waste a bunch of money building this thing.... awesome!

Dood, you totally need to PDF that email and host it up somewhere where us CZ guys can download a copy of it!

Why? It's a non-binding opinion. To be official, it would have have to appear in the rulebook, on the production list, or in the published interpretations....

[Torogi]

Giving a thought about this CZ75B SA conversion, i dont think its ever gonna make it to the list. Why? its basically SA, and that is all what it is. CZ75B is the DA/SA one and it is there already.

[Philo_Beddoe]

Giving a thought about this CZ75B SA conversion, i dont think its ever gonna make it to the list. Why? its basically SA, and that is all what it is. CZ75B is the DA/SA one and it is there already.

Not to get a philosophical but what is a cz75b SA? In my view it is a cz75b with a Single action trigger, if the single action trigger has been converted to DA/SA trigger it is no longer a SA and has becomes just a CZ75B, which is why I believed Armidon stated what he did.

[Torogi]

Giving a thought about this CZ75B SA conversion, i dont think its ever gonna make it to the list. Why? its basically SA, and that is all what it is. CZ75B is the DA/SA one and it is there already.

Not to get a philosophical but what is a cz75b SA? In my view it is a cz75b with a Single action trigger, if the single action trigger has been converted to DA/SA trigger it is no longer a SA and has becomes just a CZ75B, which is why I believed Armidon stated what he did.

CZ75B SA, is a variant of CZ75B that is single action only. I understand that if you change it to DA/SA then it should be CZ75B right? Not quite. Your slide still says CZ75B SA. Does converting the CZ75B to single-action-only make it CZ75B SA?

We are referring to a particular model. whatever you do to that model/variant, it is still that model/variant. That is why for production the rule is simplified as if its not there, it is not legal.

Not until it is listed or published, it is not legal.

[clown]

I had a SA converted to DA/SA and carried around that vary note from Amidon. I didn't feel comfortable with it outside of local matches so I sold it and purchased a shadow. For me, it came down to the approved production list. It wasn't worth arguing with match directors.