Multigun Match Design Input

[sbmd]

Well I have been thinking over the past year as I have negotiated some of the best three gun matches across the country. Almost can't get me back to a handgun only match! My thoughts are this....we all like multi-gun not single gun. So why not have a match that uses all three gun throughout all the stages.......I am not talking going crazy such as 30 rounds of shotgun 30 rounds of handgun and 30 rounds of rifle per stage.....Travis at MGM has that covered in the Ironman. I was thinking more in the line of 8-12 shotgun, 14-22 handgun rounds and 20 rifle rounds per stage. Mix it up within the stage itself much like this....stage 1 - start with shotgun slung, handgun loaded and holstered, rifle at low ready....on signal engage T1 - T10 with 2 rounds each with the rifle, safely ground the rifle and engage PP1 - PP 10 and P1 - P16 with either the handgun or shotgun and then steel gong 1-4 with 1 round of slug each. Of course there is a pistol grounding box or shotgun grounding box.

All stages you would fire all shooting platforms (handgun, rifle and shotgun). The shooter would be moving down range so the stage can be reset while the stage is being shot so this would minimize down time.

I figure a match consisting of 10 stages, 160-180 handgun rounds, 120-160 of shotgun and 160-180 rifle rounds. Here is the catch, shoot Friday, Saturday and half day Sunday. 4 stages on Friday and Saturday and 2 on Sunday. Shoot 4 stages back to back. Start at 0730 and finish at noon or start at 1pm and finish at 5:30pm. Then Sunday 1 group would shoot at 0800 and 0900 then the second group would shoot at 1000 and 1100. Awards at 1300.

You guys provide me some feedback as I work on this project.

Larry

[ken hebert]

"If you build it, they will come."

I know I'd do it. Sounds like Blue Ridge on crack.

[Bryan 45]

When will the app be up? I'm in!

You'll never be able to please all the people, but I've thought along these lines. A shooter can go 4 weekends a month, usually within 3 hours of their house and shoot a pistol match. MG matches are fewer and further between-at least on our side of the Mississippi. Why have so many pistol targets at MG matches? It really drives me crazy when there are pistol only stages. If I want to shoot a pistol, I'll go to a local match.

I'd favor a mix of 40% rifle, 40% shotgun, 20% pistol (max).

[00bullitt]

One thing I really liked at the FNH match last weekend was the use of just about all steel targets. Scoring was a breeze and it was not easy hitting those little plates with pistol. also very weather neutral. One thing I would do if placing them in natural terrain is to tie orange flagging tape to the bases.

And the RO that thought of tying the bailing wire from the plate to the stand was just brilliant.

I like the 3 gun matches that keep the emphasis divided equally amongst all 3 guns also.

Like was said....."If you build it...they will come"

[sbmd]

Yes...I agree to tie a piece of engineer tape to the stand for easy in identifying the plates especially in those conditions. The wire worked very good as well especially where the plates where in regards to the creek which earlier in the week was a small river. The plates thing was good too but the amount of I am looking at would be a tremendous amount of steel.

What do folks think about the empty gun grounding.....I know it created a bunch of DQ's but everyone knew the rules prior to the start at the shooter's meeting. I thought it was a great idea to help speed up the stage clearance time, the gun is verified clear and moved to the rack. This eliminates the carpet causing the safeties to come off as I saw many of them at Benning.

Keep the ideas and thoughts coming......

[Benelli Chick]

Pistol buckets don't have carpet, and they don't knock off your safety because your pistol is muzzle down not resting on the safety.

Don't like people handling my empty gun much either, so...

On safe or empty or both, then as the shooter walks back with the RO's, (the setters have reset behind the shooter), the shooter and RO stop and clear the other 2 guns. As they walk to the start, the next shooter is waiting, ready to go!

This takes no more time this way than having RO's picking up your guns. No one should be handling any guns while people are downrange resetting the stage anyway. So, they'll have to wait until the setters come back anyway!

Works pretty well for us, and there's no dumping shotgun rounds into the berm, or shooting the last pistol or rifle round out after dumping mag. If you want to dump mag and rack, more power to you!

Just my 3 and half cents!

Denise

[bigbrowndog]

at what point does an untouched loaded weapon go OFF, by itself???? or empty the chamber!! who cares if there is a mag in it or ammo in the tube, its not going not fire with nothing in the chamber.

going with three guns for every stage should require more shooter walkthrough time, 5 min per shooter is a holdover from one gun matches, not multigun matches, few MD's seem to have considered this when designing stages and looking at time constraints, Keeping all guns equal is by far more fair for all competitors strengths and weaknesses.

Trapr

[sbmd]

going with three guns for every stage should require more shooter walk through time, 5 min per shooter is a holdover from one gun matches, not multigun matches, few MD's seem to have considered this when designing stages and looking at time constraints,

Good Point Trapper.......well taken and will be considered!

No one should be handling any guns while people are downrange resetting the stage anyway. So, they'll have to wait until the setters come back anyway!

Denise...I was looking at grounding points that are angled so they could be cleared or verified with no one in the vicinity of the firearm.

Larry

[00bullitt]

What do folks think about the empty gun grounding.....I know it created a bunch of DQ's but everyone knew the rules prior to the start at the shooter's meeting. I thought it was a great idea to help speed up the stage clearance time, the gun is verified clear and moved to the rack. This eliminates the carpet causing the safeties to come off as I saw many of them at Benning.

As for empty gun grounding...I'm fine with that so long as that is what everyone has to do. What I am not fine with is announcing in the shooters meeting that a match DQ is a round in the chamber with the bolt or slide closed and a stage DQ is a round left in the gun other than the chamber and then when the match starts.....a match DQ is given regardless of the condition. If the stage designer uses good forethought and common sense in abandonment locations....the gun can be grounded in a safe condition regardless of its condition. Pencils don't mispell words and guns don't shoot by themselves. There are certain situations that I think warrant a match DQ. Breaking the 180, A Negligent Discharge, sweeping yourself with the muzzle and dropping or losing control of a loaded gun. Improperly but safe grounded guns should be no more than a stage DQ in my opinion if that. Toss it in a barrel and it bounces out on the ground and happens to have a round in the chamber....then yeah....match DQ. But seriously....if an RO picks up a grounded gun with a closed slide and no magazine inserted and an errant round falls out of the magwell.....c'mon.....really?

[sbmd]

What do folks think about the empty gun grounding.....I know it created a bunch of DQ's but everyone knew the rules prior to the start at the shooter's meeting. I thought it was a great idea to help speed up the stage clearance time, the gun is verified clear and moved to the rack. This eliminates the carpet causing the safeties to come off as I saw many of them at Benning.

As for empty gun grounding...I'm fine with that so long as that is what everyone has to do. What I am not fine with is announcing in the shooters meeting that a match DQ is a round in the chamber with the bolt or slide closed and a stage DQ is a round left in the gun other than the chamber and then when the match starts.....a match DQ is given regardless of the condition. If the stage designer uses good forethought and common sense in abandonment locations....the gun can be grounded in a safe condition regardless of its condition. Pencils don't mispell words and guns don't shoot by themselves. There are certain situations that I think warrant a match DQ. Breaking the 180, A Negligent Discharge, sweeping yourself with the muzzle and dropping or losing control of a loaded gun. Improperly but safe grounded guns should be no more than a stage DQ in my opinion if that. Toss it in a barrel and it bounces out on the ground and happens to have a round in the chamber....then yeah....match DQ. But seriously....if an RO picks up a grounded gun with a closed slide and no magazine inserted and an errant round falls out of the magwell.....c'mon.....really?

You know the sad part was that I was so focused in on the empty gun match DQ thing that I did not even hear them say anything about a stage DQ....not saying that it wasn't said I just tuned it out because I was thinking about the empty grounding being totally different since I was shooting the xrail. I see the rifle and handgun being easy to unload and ground safely. Shotgun a little different but could be solved with like you said a little thought.

Working on this and turning the wheels...again there may not be a right answer but I agree it must remain consistent.

[LChico]

Well I have been thinking over the past year as I have negotiated some of the best three gun matches across the country. Almost can't get me back to a handgun only match! My thoughts are this....we all like multi-gun not single gun. So why not have a match that uses all three gun throughout all the stages.......I am not talking going crazy such as 30 rounds of shotgun 30 rounds of handgun and 30 rounds of rifle per stage.....Travis at MGM has that covered in the Ironman. I was thinking more in the line of 8-12 shotgun, 14-22 handgun rounds and 20 rifle rounds per stage. Mix it up within the stage itself much like this....stage 1 - start with shotgun slung, handgun loaded and holstered, rifle at low ready....on signal engage T1 - T10 with 2 rounds each with the rifle, safely ground the rifle and engage PP1 - PP 10 and P1 - P16 with either the handgun or shotgun and then steel gong 1-4 with 1 round of slug each. Of course there is a pistol grounding box or shotgun grounding box.

All stages you would fire all shooting platforms (handgun, rifle and shotgun). The shooter would be moving down range so the stage can be reset while the stage is being shot so this would minimize down time.

I figure a match consisting of 10 stages, 160-180 handgun rounds, 120-160 of shotgun and 160-180 rifle rounds. Here is the catch, shoot Friday, Saturday and half day Sunday. 4 stages on Friday and Saturday and 2 on Sunday. Shoot 4 stages back to back. Start at 0730 and finish at noon or start at 1pm and finish at 5:30pm. Then Sunday 1 group would shoot at 0800 and 0900 then the second group would shoot at 1000 and 1100. Awards at 1300.

You guys provide me some feedback as I work on this project.

Larry

Oh, hell.

Is this your idea of payback since I dragged you into the Pan Am? I am completely on the other side of the country & I can see the gleam in your eyes.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Charles Bond]

I am completely on the other side of the country & I can see the gleam in your eyes.

Something magic is about to happen folks....I will stay tuned for the updates.

[1chota]

Pistol buckets don't have carpet, and they don't knock off your safety because your pistol is muzzle down not resting on the safety.

Don't like people handling my empty gun much either, so...

On safe or empty or both, then as the shooter walks back with the RO's, (the setters have reset behind the shooter), the shooter and RO stop and clear the other 2 guns. As they walk to the start, the next shooter is waiting, ready to go!

This takes no more time this way than having RO's picking up your guns. No one should be handling any guns while people are downrange resetting the stage anyway. So, they'll have to wait until the setters come back anyway!

Works pretty well for us, and there's no dumping shotgun rounds into the berm, or shooting the last pistol or rifle round out after dumping mag. If you want to dump mag and rack, more power to you!

Just my 3 and half cents!

Denise

absolutely correct on the RO clearing the guns. NO ONE should handle firearms when people are downrange. (i guess that is the instructor side of me coming out) safety first, then tons of fun. pistols and rifles have magazines and can be quickly cleared by dumping the mag and racking the slide. not so with the auto shotgun. since i usually run out of ammo and have to reload at least one extra round, no problem for me, but lots of folks end up with more than one round left and way slow to rack those out. racking a pump gun is inherantly dangerous as most do not have a trigger block safety. i prefer to empty the shotgun by shooting the remaining rounds into the berm. just my 2c.

[whiskey1]

I like it. Balance between the three guns like you said, but also make an effort to balance the targets for each gun. In other words a good mix of short, medium, and long targets as well as target size and difficulty for each one...Hope that makes sense. As for the condition the guns are abandoned in- I think it is safer to abandon a firearm with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction than it is to require any "speed manipulation" on the clock. NDs are more likely when having to speed unload, and errant rounds fired over the berm are probably more likely when the rules encourage competitors to "dump" rounds before abandoning a firearm.

Anyway, when you do it- I'll be there...

[Bruce Bethell]

If I am running a shooter, my problem with dumping rounds to abandon an empty gun is distinguishing between a "dump" and an AD. If I am shooting, my attention is naturally going to shift to the transition to the next gun. I agree that the chances of that last round leaving the berm by an over shoot, or hitting the ground and bouncing out, tip the safety scales in favor of a hot gun, safety on, in a barrel or on a table with side rails, both pointed in a safe direction.

I am MD for the Arkansas Section Multi-Gun coming up October 30 and 31 at Old Fort Gun Club in Fort Smith, AR. I'm about half way through setting stages for the match, and I have always liked the "Multi" part of Multi-Gun. Our SC has suggested a mix of (2) RPS, (2) RP, (2) RS, (2) PS, and one each with only R, P & S, for a total of 11 stages. I'll keep the round mix of the three guns within the 25% variance suggested by USPSA, but Tom may have to live with more guns on a couple of stages. If all else fails, I could always throw in another prop gun or two. (Nobody except me seems to like prop guns, but I think they add a little fun and challenge to the match. They keep people talking about the match long after it is over, and besides, I am the MD, so ......)

I'll watch here for more input on the mix of guns on stages. My goal is to design a MG match that shooters want to come back and shoot next year, and the best way to accomplish that goal is to listen to folks who have been there, done that.

Pump Daddy, the one with the Rem 870.

[Alaskapopo]

Well I have been thinking over the past year as I have negotiated some of the best three gun matches across the country. Almost can't get me back to a handgun only match! My thoughts are this....we all like multi-gun not single gun. So why not have a match that uses all three gun throughout all the stages.......I am not talking going crazy such as 30 rounds of shotgun 30 rounds of handgun and 30 rounds of rifle per stage.....Travis at MGM has that covered in the Ironman. I was thinking more in the line of 8-12 shotgun, 14-22 handgun rounds and 20 rifle rounds per stage. Mix it up within the stage itself much like this....stage 1 - start with shotgun slung, handgun loaded and holstered, rifle at low ready....on signal engage T1 - T10 with 2 rounds each with the rifle, safely ground the rifle and engage PP1 - PP 10 and P1 - P16 with either the handgun or shotgun and then steel gong 1-4 with 1 round of slug each. Of course there is a pistol grounding box or shotgun grounding box.

All stages you would fire all shooting platforms (handgun, rifle and shotgun). The shooter would be moving down range so the stage can be reset while the stage is being shot so this would minimize down time.

I figure a match consisting of 10 stages, 160-180 handgun rounds, 120-160 of shotgun and 160-180 rifle rounds. Here is the catch, shoot Friday, Saturday and half day Sunday. 4 stages on Friday and Saturday and 2 on Sunday. Shoot 4 stages back to back. Start at 0730 and finish at noon or start at 1pm and finish at 5:30pm. Then Sunday 1 group would shoot at 0800 and 0900 then the second group would shoot at 1000 and 1100. Awards at 1300.

You guys provide me some feedback as I work on this project.

Larry

Myself and two friends recently hosted a multi gun match. We had 8 stages. 4 stages per day. We all prefer high round count stages. One of the stages has over 50 rifle shots and 9 handgun shots. There was a shotgun only stage with over 36 misc steel and clay targets. It was fun. My feeling is guys have to drive at least 2 hours to get to my town depending on where they live so we might as well have them shoot. Our match had a round count of 160 rifle, 160 handgun 75 shot and 15 slugs.

A week after our match I attended one in Fairbanks that had a ton of rounds fired. One stage had all three guns being used and over 80 rifle rounds 12 shotgun and 20 pistol. It was a blast. I don't mind small stages but I much prefer to have longer stages with a lot of shooting.

Pat