SherlockWV Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Hi Folks - I do not understand why (for whatever reason) I keep pulling the muzzle of the gun down at the time I depress the trigger or fire the shot. It doesn't happen all of the time but enough to concern me. I do dry fire drills, keep the sights level while actually dry firing with a cocked gun but try as I may, I invairably, start to pull down with my trigger finger. I try (perhaps that is an ingredient in the problem) to maintain my trigger finger seperate from my grip but today I really noticed that this problem was bad. Flex offered me some very good advice about adjusting to the Glock 2 stage trigger and a drill requring me to balance a dime on the front sight while firing. I have been doing this. But...I am "pulling down" with my 1911 too and that trigger has been worked and is very nice. Something unconscious perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD MOVE IS THE TRIGGER FINGER. And gently at that. Isolate that trigger finger. I just spent a range session today reminding myself of that... much to my benefit, I might add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Heavy dry firing at home has gotten rid of most of my flinch but I find I still have to fight it sometimes during matches when the stress is high. I don't think I will ever be able to completely solve it but it has definitely been tamed! A good drill at the range is to have someone load a snap cap into an otherwise full mag and work at not flinching. You will see any trace of a flinch when you drop the hammer on an inert round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 19, 2004 Author Share Posted January 19, 2004 Sound advice Sig Lady. Thanks. I really thought that I had achieved that very thing but obviously not. Once again, Flex has come to my aide and suggested that I just concern myself at this stage of my development with "Calling My Shots". He emphasized the need to "know exactly where the bullet was going to go at the time the gun fired. Flex has seen me shoot since starting in late Aug. 03 and has a pretty good picture of what I do. I think that I am going to focus on calling my shots during the next few days. Of course your advice will also be heeded. Right now I have but a tiny distance to shoot until the weather here gets warmer but even so I think if I simply (kiss) focus on calling my shots the trigger finger will follow. Ya think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 19, 2004 Author Share Posted January 19, 2004 Larry, interesting post. I had read this before on another topic that you contributed to. But I never considered what I was doing as a Flinch. I hate to be redundant but again what Flex has advised me to do by gaining the discipline of "Calling Each Shot" should (I hope) help this problem too. When the weater warms I will have an opportunity to apply your suggestion. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Perhaps you are hammering the trigger with too much oomph? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 19, 2004 Author Share Posted January 19, 2004 MM - Yea you might be right. Although I truly believe Flex's PM's to me re: calling shots must be my 1st priority, I went in a did some dry firing. Sig Lady made a reference to "gently" and I realized that I was hitting the trigger pretty hard once the sights lined up. Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 ...G-E-N-T-L-Y...... You probably have a trigger-weight that is absurdly low (like mine) anyway, so there's probably NO NEED to yank or jump on that trigger... so don't. "Squeeze, don't pull." One of my ROs sez, "Finesse the trigger." Makes sense to me. My team captain today handed me a target with a small black bullseye and I sent it out 30ft and nailed the thing dead center (except for two mysterious flyers) in about 15-20 shots by just easing off on the pressure from all directions. It was a vast improvement over about six weeks ago. My Kimber is tuned for a light touch. I now realize what that requires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 A good drill at the range is to have someone load a snap cap into an otherwise full mag and work at not flinching. You will see any trace of a flinch when you drop the hammer on an inert round. How do you tell the difference between movement on hammer fall on a snap being caused by a flinch versus anticipating recoil? I hear most experienced shooters do the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Please read my tag line SherlockWV. "wanking" is a term some shooters use for what you are talking about. I still do it sometimes too. For me, it is happening on my first shot occasionally. I think I am hitting the trigger to hard on my first shot. I tend to "ride" my trigger once on it. Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Some great shooters "slap" their trigger. The MOST important thing is that the instant the gun goes off the sights are on target, the trigger goes straight back not effecting the shot, and grip and stance are correct and CONSISTANT. This will contribute to you calling your shot. I know this sounds easy but I watched Todd J last night, on "Shooting Galley show" steal a line I have been saying for 10+ years. The handgun is THE most difficult gun to shoot. They are unconscious effects and needs to be worked on in dry/live fire with correct technique. Don't discount stance and grip in your quest. All factor in. Good luck. PS Don't TRY. It kills performance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 19, 2004 Author Share Posted January 19, 2004 I am getting some great contributions from you folks. Sig Lady, did you get the PM I sent about my trigger? Somehow I received it in my mail. Kevin, what you are talking about had be confused when reading the thread "Pushing your Gun". I thought after reading the posts on that thread that I was jus "anticipating" recoil. SingleStack, what is "WANK"? B.Severs, your input is consistent with what Flexmoney has contributed through PMs. i.e. "call every shot" of course grip and stance are included in that. I felt that if I was truly "hammering the trigger" then I would actually see my sights go off line as the shot fired if I was truly "calling my shots". This was latter confirmed to me by Flex. Thanks again everyone. This is such a great site for this old "newbie". Good & Safe Shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Kevin, In my mind there really is no difference. A flinch is a developed response to noise or recoil. Semantics aside, it really doesnt matter....Any movement of the sights before the bullet is out of the barrel will effect accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 Larry - So the bottom line is exactly what Flex has been trying to get across to me by calling the shot. If done properly then one will see where the sights are at the time of the shot regardless of "flinch" or "hammering the trigger. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 You mentioned Glock and 1911. If you haven't become familiar with either, don't keep switching back'n forth. Master one then move on. It might make the learning curve easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 TD, For the last couple of months it has been nothing but the 1911. Islide cutting problem forced me over to the 1911. But I must say that from time to time I picke the "21" up and shoot it because I have changed my grip and now the slide is not cutting me. But...I havnen't done anything from the draw, then shoot to see if I am getting the grip down. 90% of my time is with the 1911. Sorry if I mispoke or prashed some wolrds that I was indeed using two guns. Be Well & Safe Shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 In theory it's true that one should see the sights move corresponding with a trigger jerk or grip convulsion (the instant before the gun fires), but in actuality one seldom does, because the eye(s) are usually closed or "jerking" simultaneously with the hand's movements. That's why at this stage of the game it's vitally important to go all the way back to the beginning......... Find and reread some of the threads on blinking, and how to overcome this natural tendency. And as Flex has told you - dedicate this time of your training to learning exactly what it means to call the shot. Shoot slowfire groups at 25 yds with the goal being to know where each shot went - at the instant the shot fired - by reading the sights. Make this an essential part of your training until you get it. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Heavy dry firing at home has gotten rid of most of my flinch but I find I still have to fight it sometimes during matches when the stress is high. If I had a dollar for every person that statement applied to, I could retire. I'd probably be at the head of the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Shoot slowfire groups at 25 yds with the goal being to know where each shot went - at the instant the shot fired - by reading the sights. An interesting benefit I found from doing this is that I will wager you will almost always OVERESTIMATE how far off (from target center) the shot hits based on sight perception when you first start trying to read the POI from sight position. It's probably the main reason most of us get hypnotized on the sights and try so hard to get perfect alignment... and then yank the trigger at that instant which throws the shot off. This training will show you perfect alignment is not required, just getting the sights into the right zone and then executing a pull that does not move them. You just have to learn the boundaries of the zone and learn how to do a smooth trigger pull. I've been working on that for a few years now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 Thanks be & BH - I know that I have to go back to the beginning. Perhaps I am just lucky or my years of experience with the "Bow" but I have actually had my wife watch my eyes during the shots and they do not blink. As mentioned the only place that I have to shoot is a 7 yard spot into a bank. (not the kind with $$) Although just shooting & trying to call my shots, I started noticing the shots moving down. Suddenly I realized what Sig Lady suggested and I was able to disconect from my trigger finger, keep my sights level, and call each shot and the area that I was hitting was consitant. Lighter on the trigger with "seperation of it from my hand along with shot calling allowed for a much better follow through. be your are right about going back and reading. I will get there. Still apprceciate all this good in put. Safe and Good Shooting to you All. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 PS: Currently following Flex's advice and not even using targets. With limited shooting area & such, I am trying to just work on calling my shots, which I am finding out includes trigger control. Grip & Stance I do mostly in the house. I don't know where you folks are but at this writing it is 14 degrees outside and it only got to 20 today with a stiff N. Wind. Be Well!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Kevin, In my mind there really is no difference. A flinch is a developed response to noise or recoil. Semantics aside, it really doesnt matter....Any movement of the sights before the bullet is out of the barrel will effect accuracy. My (mis?)understanding is that in "anticipating" or perhaps it might be better to say "expecting" recoil, the shooter breaks the shot w/o disturbing the sight picture, and then begins to pull the gun down to compensate for the recoil of the gun. The gun then moves down on a dry hammer fall because there is no recoil to compensate for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 Kevin, I get the impression that most are talking about anticipating the shot before the shot breaks thus either jerking the gun down or some other form of recoil expectation just before the shot. As an old newbie I really cannot comment. I can say that the drills Flex and others have recomended to me i.e. gaining the disclipline of "calling each shot", trigger control, & follow through are very applicable to me. Yesterday I was actually able to "disconect" after my 1st Mag and finished the last three pretty consistently. I was able to see my sights lift without a problem. Now I don't know if there was an "unconscious" reaction afterwards but I do know that my front sight was coming back into the sight window. Earlier I mentioned my time shooting the bow. I went to sleep last night thinking about that very thing. (Actually looking to see if I was deceiving myself) I shot Archery for over 20 years with a 40% let off bow and a release. Believe it or not, one can develop a "Flinch" very easily with such equiptment, especially with a bow set at 75 lb. I had to aquire the disclipline to "stop" this flinch, plus keep my eyes open & follow the shot visually to the target. Of course proper "follow through" tehinque was paramount. Because of this, (I believe) that I do not close my eyes during the shot of the pistol. And... as suggested by so many others, that if I get the fundamentals down well, I will progress to the level of my current ability through the application of these principles. There was (is) a spiritual quality to my archery and I believe this true in the pistol game as well. It may lie in the individual but I think that it is there. Just starting in late August 03, I know that I know that I tried to finish up the season by shooting too fast and was emotionalized a lot. I hope that by following all of the good suggestions provided so far along with the proper practice techniques that I will gain a respectable preformance with the pistol. Many thanks for your contributions. JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 JC At that 7 yards can you shoot a paster everytime? Or better yet can you shoot a hole and them shoot another through it? This could reveal a lot of good information. Yes master the fundementals, with correct technique, or you will un-learn them at 1/10th the progress you are making. I see spiritual as using your subconcious to shoot. Absolutely, AFTER you master sight, trigger, grip and stance. PS You should be using the same grip and stance when practicing groups, not as a seperate exercise. Its a package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 Thanks B, I am using 4" paper pie plates with the centers 21/2 in. colored in and a 1" Pasty or Orange Sicker in the center. By chance, I just came in from running a 10 rd. Mag in my Glock 21. Out of the 10, 3 were in the pasty and the last 7 were within a inch and a half. I know that is not good but, (and I am not making excuses) I am trying to just watch my sights and follow through + maintain a "detached" trigger pull. I do employ grip and stance. But, it is 14 degrees outside and I just went out to run a mag in the Glock. (No Holster) I had to send my slide from my 1911 to Dawson yesterday. I have been expecting a new front for it but when it didn't come, I called and talked with Dave Dawson personally. Turns out that he is making a new "rear" and made me a deal to buy both sights and he would install them the same day then get the slide back to me. Just as a precaution I have to start shooting the Glock 21 just in case the slide doesn't get back in time. There is a IDPA match 2 Sundays from now that I want to shoot in. I don't like switching from 1 gun to another, particularly ones with substantially different triggers. But at this point , no choice. I appreciate your comments about the + - learning curve. Re: the Spiritual, same song different verse. I believe we all are seeking our own paths and that even though the words are different, the meaning is the same. I use Spiritual because I think of myself as a Spiritual person however I hold the deepest respect for all belief systems. Many years of quietly sittting in the woods, gaining the rythm of the woods touches me very deeply. As a result, I humbly state that come Turkey or Deer season my phone rings off the hook with people wanting to hunt with me. Thanks again. JC PS: We West Virginians are a bit touched in the head anyway. That is why all the guys I shoot with and who help me are from Ohio. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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