Disappearing Turners

[Steve Anderson]

One of my blunders last week was trying to do the old "shoot the activating steel, engage the closest target, then go back for the activated target before it disappears" move.

I've always regarded this as a risky move, but since I was in my retarded speed-demon mode I gave it a shot.

Sure enough, I missed the steel the first time, shot the closest target, went back to the steel and hit it, went to the next closest target, then wildly flung some lead at the disappearing target as it mocked me with its profile.

I know exactly what I did wrong, but I am wondering when to start considering trying this move again.

I see it a lot with open shooters, sometimes to great effect, sometimes not.

Is it a matter of conservative vs. aggressive shooters, or is it something everybody does at a certain level of skill?

And, is it as common in limited and production as in open?

Thanks guys,

SA

[BSeevers]

Steve

When I shot it the second time on the 3 gun stage run(Stg 2) I drew on T3, Shot Popper, Shot T1 and T2 and shot dropper while moving out of box. A Master Limited/Production would do the same thing(maybe even draw on popper GM I thought about but was a half  popper shot). I have seen the big boys shoot many targets and still wait for the activator. Its all in knowing what you can do and timing out the stage. When you shoot at higher classes you cannot wait for targets(some stages you do it depends). That adds up to .5-1.0 sec per target which will drop you 10 places sometimes. I am not slow and recently I have had a  guy shoot a Glock right with me. We can't even get into what Jerry/Todd and Robbie do

(Edited by BSeevers at 3:09 pm on Aug. 14, 2002)

(Edited by BSeevers at 3:22 pm on Aug. 14, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

Steve,

You are covering a lot of ground with this question.

First...Production, Open, Limited...doesn't matter.

Second...can and should.  Big decision.  I learned this from David B. at last years Limited Nationals.  The big-dogs would often engage the activator, swing to a static, then come back for the mover.  Depending on your level...that might not be prudent.

Third...There are two important aspects to activators and movers.  One is the amount of time it takes to activate.  The other is how fast it moves after it activates.

When you say "aggressive" I think you mean pushing closer to one's maximum ability (often, past their ability).  I think...you gotta know if you can engage a static (or two) after the activator and before the mover.

Barnhart, in his videos, using a stop-watch to time the activators.  He already kows how long it takes him to transition form target to target.

[ErikW]

Heck yeah I always look for something else to shoot after an activator. Preferably it's between the activator and the activated target so I can do it efficiently. It all depends on the target difficulty (size, shape, distance) and the speed at which things activate.

I've shot like 3 US poppers between an activator and activatee. I've also had to go directly from activator to activatee.

You don't have to see the activatee appear, you just need to get to it before it disappears. If you see it turn from edge to full, you probably could have shot something else.

Make sure you don't rush whatever target you are picking up between activator and activatee. You don't want a miss on a real target just to get hits on a non-penalty target. BTDT. Resist the temptation to look for the activatee until after you've called the shot(s) on the real target.

FYI, most drop turners or swingers activated by a popper falling against a cable take 1-2 seconds to appear after the bullet hits the popper.

(Edited by Erik Warren at 4:04 pm on Aug. 14, 2002)

[sincityshooter]

I agree that you have to know how long it takes the drop turner to activate and you also have to figure out how long it takes to appear.  A lot of times during a walkthrough someone will activate the mover by hitting the steel pretty hard.  A pepper popper usually gives you a couple seconds before it activates the mover.  A US popper doesn't give you the same effect.  I time the delay in my head, add a little bit for how slow the steel will fall, then I go through that part of the stage.  I start with the most effective way to see if I can transition, get good hits, and pause on any tough shots.  I'm sure many shooters would agree on this approach.  It's EXREMELY important to get that first hit on the steel.  I've seen some good plans go to crap with one bad shot.  You can't afford to sit there with your sight on a target waiting for it.  

[Storm]

The biggest trick (besides hitting the activator on the first attempt) is determining how many shots "you" can take between shooting the activator & activatee. You have to take into account what your current abilities are & how difficult the shots are.

I remember watching Michael Voigt shoot a stage at Area 3 a couple years ago. He shot the activator popper, another popper, 2 shots each on 2 static targets and was still waiting for the disappearing target to fully appear. That really taught me how much time there is available while waiting for a target to appear. Another stage had 5 disappearing targets from 3 different positions. At each position, he shot the activators first, all the statics then the DT's and was complaining afterwards that he had to wait for all the DT's.

Almost anyone can "usually" shoot at least one target while waiting for a target to appear.

[Ron Ankeny]

I do the same thing that Erik describes.

I don't think it is a matter of "conservative vs. aggressive shooters" as much as it is a matter of "knowing vs. questioning" shooters. I know a lot of shooters blow off us guys who seem to over analyze every little aspect of our shooting, but here's where it pays off.

When I see movers the first thing I look at is the transition times from activator to static target then back to activatee (did you coin that word Erik?)

For instance, I know I can transition from a target at 20 yards to another target out to 10 yards, with a five to seven yard spacing in .4 seconds (I track that drill monthly as per Matt Burkett's manual).  I take another .2 to .25 for the split on the static target(probably more like .18), and then .4 to the turner. Those times are not exceptionally fast, but when you add them all up it comes out to one second. You will probably get to the drop turner just at it starts down or right at the beginning of the turn. If you know, without any doubt, that you can do it, and just drive the gun, then it's a piece of cake.

[Steve Anderson]

Ron, Erik,

That's just what I was looking for. I need to time my transitions and do a little math on the stage, instead of just thinking I can maybe pull it off.

Thanks,

SA

[ErikW]

You can also just get behind the position while somebody's shooting, hold your hands up at the activator popper, and transition off it when the shooter hits it.

[cpty1]

I find it interesting as to the many different ways shooters approach disappearing targets, at least when match design allows for multiple choice when it comes to what or how much is engaged after the activator yet before the activatee.  One thing that impressed me about the FGN design was there were several stages where a large number of targets could be engaged after the activator.  In particular was the stage where you started on one knee with your hands on a "car" (don't remember the stage number) but at the end of the stage a shooter could potentially engage the activator, then opt to shoot three more pieces of steel and two static targets with two rounds each before engaging the disappearing target.  It was interesting in my squad alone to see the varying approaches on this stage as to what and how much was shot after the activator.  I don't think anyone could have shot everything back there prior to the drop turner, but the option was there and if anyone did it they were flat smokin'!  I also usually try to time what I can shoot before a target disappears but don't really go to the extent of breaking that time down into split and transition times to the tenths of a second.  I do see  merit in that method however,  I find myself sometimes being aware of the disappearing target's position with my peripheral vision but my best results are always those where I have no knowledge of the disappearing targets position until I index there and it's right where it needs to be for just long enough to get two good hits on it.  Ah, that's a good feeling.

[TRNinTX]

Chris,

I had a round hit the edge of the popper in front of the activator on that stage and knocked both poppers down.  Things started moving before I was ready!   You talk about a plan going out the window in a hurry.

[Duane Thomas]

Erik,

"BTDT"?

[Duane Thomas]

A little sneaky trick you can use, to give yourself a bit more time to engage other targets before coming back to the activatee, ASSUMING you're shooting a Major caliber AND/OR the target is set "light" enough it'll still fall when you do this, is to consciously hit it low, below the "lollipop." This can give you another half second before the activatee appears. Learned that one from Lisa Munson. And it works.

Here's where it comes in really handy to be one of those helpful types who's always going downrange to tape targets and resetting steel. As you're resetting the steel you can "work" it a bit to get a feel for how it's set, and whether or not a low blow could take it down.

[Flexmoney]

...and on the other end...to get it to drop/activate faster, hammer it with extra shots.

[sincityshooter]

I did an experiment with a Pepper popper this past weekend.  Shooting the popper just above the center circle activated a swinger in 1 second... middle activated it in 1.2 seconds... just below the circle took 1.4 seconds.  .4 seconds is a lot of time.  Think about it.

[ErikW]

BTDT=Been There, Done That

BTDTGTTS= ", Got The T-Shirt

Hmm, shooting poppers low or high to control speed... I don't know about that. I do know shooting them high, above the circle, 2 or 3 times, doesn't even seem to get them down any faster when I have a stacked array behind one or more poppers. It does, however, launch bullets over the berm.

[Flexmoney]

Nothing seems fast when you are waiting for a popper to fall.

The whole world kinda slows down.

(Edited by Flexmoney at 7:41 pm on Aug. 20, 2002)

[sincityshooter]

I was shocked at the difference when I did the experiment.  Spending the extra .10 or less ensuring a lower than normal hit would be worth the extra .3 gained if you have something to do with that spare time.  Has anyone experimented with this?  Any thoughts from Travis or Brian?