X-Five stovepiping & double feeds

[JWard79]

I have seen a few postings on this forum & the SIG forum concerning internal extractor issues, but I would like to know if anyone has any info that would allow me to correct the issue without sending it to a gunsmith. The pistol in question is an X-Five competition 9mm that has less than 5,000 rounds through it. The first year that I owned the gun I had no issues at all regardless of the ammo. After I returned from a holiday in the middle east I started having stovepipes & other malfunctions. At first I thought it was either a magazine problem or just a result of the neglect of being stateside without an operator for so long. I ended up having a friend who is a SIG certified armorer adjusting the tension on the extractor and loading 124gr to at least a 132 PF, which solved the problem for about four months. When the issue came up again I put the gun in the safe until I could get a new extractor from SIG, swapped it out, and tried again. My gun ran without incident through the first magazine, but on the second had failure to fires almost every other round. Is this an extractor issue (in which case an estimate of the proper tension would suffice), or could it be something else? I would like to think that if I am smart enough to have been a helicopter mechanic that I can figure this one out, but I am having problems seeing the forrest through the trees on this one.

[junkie]

I see you are having 3 issues

1. Stovepipe

2. failure to fire

3 and other malfunctions

Is that correct?

Are you having Extraction issues?

[JWard79]

Sorry didn't mean to confuse anyone reading this post, but the issues that I have is that the spent case is not ejected from the pistol. When a failure occurs it is either a stovepipe or double feed. During a match I just deal with it, but at the flat range today I was able to take my time and observe the slide. Whenever a failure occured I observed the top of the pistol prior to retracting the slide and took a mental note of the failure. In addition to receiving a new extrator from SIG, I was sent a new ejector. The original ejector did not appear to have any defects, but I did notice that the replacement part had a different cant on the forward end (forward vs. rearward). Not sure if this is something that would contribute to the issues that I'm having or not, so I did not replace that part.

All of this being said; I have over 13 years of military service, 3 combat tour, multiple combat shooting courses, & have been shooting competitively for almost a year. I do not believe that the grip has anything to do with the malfunction.

[gordonm1]

I just started shooting a new x5 Comp. in .40 cal. No extraction problems yet for me but I am watching out for this and already bought a replacement extractor (I read 220 ST fits). I don't know the details of tuning the extractor but I have read about tuning it until you have too much tension and backing off. You can google extractor tuning and find all kinds of stuff.

On the other hand maybe SIG in the USA will come up with a way to tune the extractors for the german made x5's or make an improved part.

I'll be tagging your thread to learn more.

gordonm1

[Trader]

I am pretty sure every one of the X5 extraction issues I have read about have been in 9mm.

[fastarget]

Have not had any problems with either of our x5's, but did have similar problems with my carry 226 SAS.

So check your OAL on your ammo, and make sure it has enough power to cycle the gun reliably everytime.

My sigs will not run reliably with low power loads, will stove pipe and double feed, sometimes it looks like the slide pulled out the casing part way and stopped.

Edited April 20, 2010 by fastarget

[grayguns]

The issue with the XFive extractor is shared by the intermediate P220's which also use the basic extractor design adapted from the SP-2009 series. Despite being an arguably marginal design as to hook shape and needlessly critical sensitivity to tension, this extractor works great in the SIG Pros. (I carry a SIG Pro on duty myself, which might say something.) It doesn't work very well in the XFive and P220, however. Central to the several factors which contribute to these issues is that, for some reason unknown to my science, this adapted SP extractor was placed lower on the breechface than in the SP. Thus, it applies tension to the case extractor groove (where no extractor ideally should bear) earlier in the feeding process, and thus will cause three-point jams if tensioned more than adequately to extract reliably. On the other hand, the lower position affords the top edge of the hook less case to bite onto; couple that with the considerable vertical float we see with these parts in typical slides, and we have a very marginal, sensitive situation. It can be worked around to some degree with currently avaialable factory parts and careful refitting and tweaking work. A replacement extractor has been developed that will be out at some point soon.

In the meantime I'll be happy to share what we know about solving this vexing issue to the degree currently possible to any Forum member who needs help. It bugs me no end that such fundamentally excellent pistols often cannot be relied upon for serious competition. Thanks for reading.

Bruce Gray

Grayguns Inc. / 541-468-3840 / bruce@grayguns.com

Edited May 6, 2010 by grayguns

[bomadera]

I have had my X-5 A.R. for about 6 months and no problem with extraction, until yesterday. Now I have a serious problem. Extractor will not remove spent case. Is the replacement extractor available yet? Please help, what good is a gun that shoots better than I can hold, if it's not reliable? I sat out a match today because of this problem. Thanks for any help.

The issue with the XFive extractor is shared by the intermediate P220's which also use the basic extractor design adapted from the SP-2009 series. Despite being an arguably marginal design as to hook shape and needlessly critical sensitivity to tension, this extractor works great in the SIG Pros. (I carry a SIG Pro on duty myself, which might say something.) It doesn't work very well in the XFive and P220, however. Central to the several factors which contribute to these issues is that, for some reason unknown to my science, this adapted SP extractor was placed lower on the breechface than in the SP. Thus, it applies tension to the case extractor groove (where no extractor ideally should bear) earlier in the feeding process, and thus will cause three-point jams if tensioned more than adequately to extract reliably. On the other hand, the lower position affords the top edge of the hook less case to bite onto; couple that with the considerable vertical float we see with these parts in typical slides, and we have a very marginal, sensitive situation. It can be worked around to some degree with currently avaialable factory parts and careful refitting and tweaking work. A replacement extractor has been developed that will be out at some point soon.

In the meantime I'll be happy to share what we know about solving this vexing issue to the degree currently possible to any Forum member who needs help. It bugs me no end that such fundamentally excellent pistols often cannot be relied upon for serious competition. Thanks for reading.

Bruce Gray

Grayguns Inc. / 541-468-3840 / bruce@grayguns.com

[mpeltier]

The issue with the XFive extractor is shared by the intermediate P220's which also use the basic extractor design adapted from the SP-2009 series. Despite being an arguably marginal design as to hook shape and needlessly critical sensitivity to tension, this extractor works great in the SIG Pros. (I carry a SIG Pro on duty myself, which might say something.) It doesn't work very well in the XFive and P220, however. Central to the several factors which contribute to these issues is that, for some reason unknown to my science, this adapted SP extractor was placed lower on the breechface than in the SP. Thus, it applies tension to the case extractor groove (where no extractor ideally should bear) earlier in the feeding process, and thus will cause three-point jams if tensioned more than adequately to extract reliably. On the other hand, the lower position affords the top edge of the hook less case to bite onto; couple that with the considerable vertical float we see with these parts in typical slides, and we have a very marginal, sensitive situation. It can be worked around to some degree with currently avaialable factory parts and careful refitting and tweaking work. A replacement extractor has been developed that will be out at some point soon.

In the meantime I'll be happy to share what we know about solving this vexing issue to the degree currently possible to any Forum member who needs help. It bugs me no end that such fundamentally excellent pistols often cannot be relied upon for serious competition. Thanks for reading.

Bruce Gray

Grayguns Inc. / 541-468-3840 / bruce@grayguns.com

Bruce,

you used a lot of words to say "the extractor position is machined too low in the slide for a 9mm". I went around with SIG, and returned my 9mm X-5 3 times, with out them fixing it. An otherwise phenominal pistol that SIG does not want to admit has a defect. It still burns me up how they have handled the issue. It was clear to me from the start the extractor was too low, easy to see if you look at it in relation to the firing pin hole and compare it to other 9mm (including other SIG's) extractor locations. I estimated on mine only about 1/3 of the extractor grabbed the shell rim. This does not seem to be a issue in .40 because the larger rim simply by virtue is larger and more case rim naturally is captured by the extractor. I hope they will fix it as I would love another X-5. It is otherwise one of the finest shooting pistols I have ever owned.

[G-ManBart]

Bruce,

you used a lot of words to say "the extractor position is machined too low in the slide for a 9mm". I went around with SIG, and returned my 9mm X-5 3 times, with out them fixing it. An otherwise phenominal pistol that SIG does not want to admit has a defect. It still burns me up how they have handled the issue. It was clear to me from the start the extractor was too low, easy to see if you look at it in relation to the firing pin hole and compare it to other 9mm (including other SIG's) extractor locations. I estimated on mine only about 1/3 of the extractor grabbed the shell rim. This does not seem to be a issue in .40 because the larger rim simply by virtue is larger and more case rim naturally is captured by the extractor. I hope they will fix it as I would love another X-5. It is otherwise one of the finest shooting pistols I have ever owned.

I'm not a fan of the X-5, but you may have overlooked something. Strikepoint of the extractor isn't measured with the slide in battery, it's with the slide partially retracted, at which point the barrel has dropped down in relation to the slide. That means the extractor should be low on the the rim when in battery, (thus not in line with with the firing pin hole) to put it in the middle of the rim during most of the slide's movement to the rear.

If you're running ammo that's only 132PF, you're going to have extraction/ejection problems with most guns that have a slide as heavy as the X-5s. The reason they don't have the problem with the .40 guns is that the ammo is normally quite a bit more powerful.

Have you tried something like a 140PF load?

[mpeltier]

Bruce,

you used a lot of words to say "the extractor position is machined too low in the slide for a 9mm". I went around with SIG, and returned my 9mm X-5 3 times, with out them fixing it. An otherwise phenominal pistol that SIG does not want to admit has a defect. It still burns me up how they have handled the issue. It was clear to me from the start the extractor was too low, easy to see if you look at it in relation to the firing pin hole and compare it to other 9mm (including other SIG's) extractor locations. I estimated on mine only about 1/3 of the extractor grabbed the shell rim. This does not seem to be a issue in .40 because the larger rim simply by virtue is larger and more case rim naturally is captured by the extractor. I hope they will fix it as I would love another X-5. It is otherwise one of the finest shooting pistols I have ever owned.

I'm not a fan of the X-5, but you may have overlooked something. Strikepoint of the extractor isn't measured with the slide in battery, it's with the slide partially retracted, at which point the barrel has dropped down in relation to the slide. That means the extractor should be low on the the rim when in battery, (thus not in line with with the firing pin hole) to put it in the middle of the rim during most of the slide's movement to the rear.

If you're running ammo that's only 132PF, you're going to have extraction/ejection problems with most guns that have a slide as heavy as the X-5s. The reason they don't have the problem with the .40 guns is that the ammo is normally quite a bit more powerful.

Have you tried something like a 140PF load?

You sound like the SIG customer service guy....

Just kidding,

No I did not overlook the "strike point" as I believe Bruce has determined the same thing as I have about the extractor on the X-5. It sits noticeably lower (about 1/16" from the top of the extractor to the bottom of the firing pin hole) than any other 9mm I compared it to. The bbl on the x-5 does not drop any lower than the average 9mm bbl as it moves out of battery. The problem is that the extractor is so low, and has just enough play that it slips off the rim before the bbl has dropped out of battery.

I never shot any reloads thru the X-5, always full power loads from litterally all makes in all bullet weights from 115 to 147. all with the same result. Never got more than 50 rounds without a failure to extract.

One problem is that I do not believe SIG puts more than a couple rounds thru it after they Look at, tune, or say a prayer over it before boxing it up and sending it back. I even bought the exact same ammo they claimed to use, and it did it on the second mag load.

I am certainly not as qualified as Bruce in these matters, but it prompted me to build my own Caspian high cap 6" 9mm for competition. It is going on 8,000 rounds now (maybee more) and has not malfunctioned one time. Shoots as accurately as the X-5, though it does not feel as good in the hand. That x-5 with Nill grips feels like it was moulded for my hand.

[grayguns]

I'm back to revisit this issue here. The X5 extractor position is indeed too low. The reliability issues with these otherwise great pistols are well known by many and understood by a few. What's needed is a replacement extractor that is positioned and shaped correctly, and that is still very much in the works, I assure you. If it were really easy it would be here already, but it's coming.

In the meantime, there is no non-gunsmith strategy of truly positive correction that I can recommend wholeheartedly, unfortunately. What I can say is that it's possible to refit the factory part a bit to help it along.

To correct vertical float, it's possible to vise the extractor from the big end and push against the hook end sideways from the bottom; we use a milling machine for this, as it affords a lot of control. This will bow the bar up towards the firing pin, taking out the vertical play when installed.

Besides being too low, the hook shape is all wrong. It's actually possible to refit the hook to exert tension against the rim so it can feed as it should, and then re-tension the thing adequately to actually extract. However, this is iffy, as it seems these vary by heat treatment and some will not take that much re-tensioning without failing in short order. A better, more practical approach is to polish the hook to ease feeding. The case extractor groove will stall on the extractor when tensioned enough to extract reliably, so careful polishing does help.

There is a sharp corner on the lower breechface sidewall opposite the extractor, just below the cartridge pocket, that must be radiused carefully and polished. The cartridge pocket itself is also often ill-defined and shallow; the upper edge of that pocket, where it meets the sidewall, should be sharply defined, and must positively locate the case rim. We use a safe-edged diamond burr on an old-style flex extension to get in there and sharpen that pocket. Caution: don't go too deep, as you'll lose tension and relative projection needed to pinion the case off the breechface and out of the ejection port.

Some X5's lack enough of that extractor projection, meaning that the extractor stops against the slide and loses it's side-tension on the case before the case is fully pinioned off and away. To correct this, we use a 3mm carbide milling cutter to shave the extractor stop on the breechface such that the extractor has enough projection to do it's job.

Some case extractor grooves are "thin" and some extractor hooks are "long". Either / both conditions allow the case web to contact to front of the extractor with enough force to actually spring the hook away from the rim upon firing. The front of the hook should be dressed to just clear the case web with the round seated against the breechface, ideally. This may not be completely possible. Look at a case that failed to extract: you may see an impression of the face of the extractor hook in the front of the extractor groove at the case web, and a corresponding tear through the case rim possibly indicating that the hook had not fully engaged the rim.

Make sure the hook itself is sharp, so that it really bites the case rim.

Look at your loads: If your case bases measure greater than .387, you can expect trouble from case adhesion. Expanded brass lacks the ability to spring back to size of new or properly resized brass. Don't expect your X5 to digest range brass like a Ruger P89 or some other really good gun; it won't.

Interestingly, we seem to see more issues with FTE's in X5's fired with fast-powder loads, such as that favourite 147 / N320 load we all have tried. It's all about the timeline relationship between peak pressures, bullet weight, and unlocking. To that end, we've found that reducing the recoil spring tension aggravates the extractor issue, at least with certain loads. That's a frustration, since the 9mm X5 is considerably oversprung for optimal competitiveness and function otherwise.

Look at your chamber: It needs to be clean. SIG barrels tend to develop slight but visible, partial ringing (probably due to abrasion from the case mouth during feeding, but also perhaps from some artifact of forming and heat-treatment that presents after some firing) about a third of the way into the chamber. I believe that ringing is implicated in FTE's when found. Those pistols with FTE issues in which this ringing was present were partially or completely restored to function after barrel replacement, or chamber honing when practical.

For example, I had a 226 ST that SIGARMS sent me to compete with in 2002 that stopped extracting at all reliably with my

147 / N320 handloads, and which became fairly balky with normally-reliable Federal 115 ball later on. The extractor was correct. The chamber ring was present, and I had replaced the 16X factory recoil spring with a 13X number. Doing nothing but going back to the factory recoil spring raised it's reliability by an order. Honing the chamber helped about as much again, but the thing still would still leave a handloaded case every now and then. Changing to a slightly slower powder all but fixed the remaining issues with handloads and it worked fine with Federal after that, but I wanted to spring it lighter and run a softer load with complete assurance. Finally, a change of barrel to another new SIG tube fully corrected the issue and permitted me to return to a lighter spring and N320.

(FWIW, I found that I shot that heavy all-stainless 226 and my even-heavier Sport Stock much better overall with the Federal factory load anyway. I finally abandoned these heavyweight 226's in favour of a pair of standard alloy-framed guns after the 2003 season, and ran 147's from them with good success until I retired in early 2005. Go figure.)

So, to recap: Keep the chamber clean, and check for ringing and impressed fouling amalgam that adheres almost invisibly to the chamber wall. Use new or well-resized brass for match loads, and avoid WWB, C&B and Blazer Brass cases. Tweak your extractor "up" a bit on it's vertical axis to reduce vertical float, polish the lower hook and breechface surfaces to ease feeding, and tension the thing so that it just feeds reliably. Avoid the temptation to reduce the recoil spring too much.

If you get stuck, call me at GGI and we'll try our best to help you until the new fix is in. Thanks!

-Bruce 541-468-3840

[staudacher]

you're going to have extraction/ejection problems with most guns that have a slide as heavy as the X-5s.

Hmm you think the X5 slide is heavy? G-man?? It is lighter than a standard P226 slide. But I'm curious just how much do you think the X5 slide weighs??? How heavy is the slide on your guns???

For the record my GGI X5 AR has gone through several thousand rounds of 130gr 127-133PF loads loads and several thousand 125gr 130-135Pf loads without a single extraction problem to date.

[G-ManBart]

you're going to have extraction/ejection problems with most guns that have a slide as heavy as the X-5s.

Hmm you think the X5 slide is heavy? G-man?? It is lighter than a standard P226 slide. But I'm curious just how much do you think the X5 slide weighs??? How heavy is the slide on your guns???

For the record my GGI X5 AR has gone through several thousand rounds of 130gr 127-133PF loads loads and several thousand 125gr 130-135Pf loads without a single extraction problem to date.

You know, cutting and pasting to take something out of context is what I consider poor form.

I wasn't saying that it has an unusually heavy slide, but it is a full size gun with a relatively heavy slide and 132PF is on the mild side for that sort of setup. If a gun has an extraction system that's a bit weak, one of the first signs can be stovepipes...that's all. No more, no less, but it's pretty obvious that a fair number of people have extraction issues with 9mm X5's, so I'm not saying anything that isn't already extensively documented.

I was doing some testing of another model gun, and had repeated failures to extract, and stovepipes with 132PF ammo (Atlanta Arms 147gr, new cases). I tried dropping the recoil spring several pounds, but still had the problems. I switched to my handload that averaged 137PF in that gun, and magically, the FTEs and stovepipes went away immediately. It was also a full size gun with a relatively heavy slide. R,

Edit to add: I've got a decent pile of 226s that I could go weigh the slide on, but that isn't the point. X-5s are only lightened less than 2oz, so it's not a world of difference.

Edited November 24, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Jaxshooter]

I have an X-5 Allround for Production Division. The only problem I have had with the gun was failure to go completely into battery when I changed the recoil spring from a 15 lb to a 13 lb. After the 15 lb spring was put back in the gun no more problems. I have reshaped he bottom edge of the extractor per info on the Sig Forum. I have never experienced an extraction or double feed problem with this gun or my steel framed USPSA 226. I have fired 2M rounds thru each gun.

I have heard of extraction problems with the X-5s but never had a problem with mine. I shoot WWB , Remington and Federal 115 gr factory loads.

[HuskySig]

I have fired 2M rounds thru each gun.

How many rounds do you have through each pistol??

[G-ManBart]

I have fired 2M rounds thru each gun.

How many rounds do you have through each pistol??

I'm hoping he's using the M for thousands, not millions!

[Rln_21]

X-5s are only lightened less than 2oz, so it's not a world of difference.

If you are referring to the slide being lightened 2oz, that actually is a world of difference when speaking about slides.

Take for example a standard profile 1911 slide. You can remove as much material as you want and you probably couldn't get much more than 2oz of weight difference out of it, however that difference makes a huge change in the guns function. I believe the last one I lightened I milled out pretty much every possible scrap of material within reason between the breechface and the rear of the slide (definitely the easiest place to remove significant amounts of material from a slide), leaving just enough material to support the front and rear of the firing pin; and I believe it removed just about 1oz, definitely not much more and IIRC actually less.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Rln_21

[G-ManBart]

X-5s are only lightened less than 2oz, so it's not a world of difference.

If you are referring to the slide being lightened 2oz, that actually is a world of difference when speaking about slides.

Take for example a standard profile 1911 slide. You can remove as much material as you want and you probably couldn't get much more than 2oz of weight difference out of it, however that difference makes a huge change in the guns function. I believe the last one I lightened I milled out pretty much every possible scrap of material within reason between the breechface and the rear of the slide (definitely the easiest place to remove significant amounts of material from a slide), leaving just enough material to support the front and rear of the firing pin; and I believe it removed just about 1oz, definitely not much more and IIRC actually less.

What you and I consider a world of difference probably don't match up. I have 9mm guns with slides that range from 8.3oz to 13.7oz. All are factory guns. Yes, taking 1.75oz (roughly the difference from 226 to X-5, although it would depend on which 226 slide version you weighed) will make a difference, but it's only a third the difference between the heaviest and lightest slides I have here, and I'm sure there are some out there that are heavier than 13.7oz.

I'm not sure what 1911 slides you've been working on, but I've got several that have more than 1oz taken out of them. Lots of Open and Limited guns have slides in the 9-10oz range. R,

[staudacher]

X-5s are only lightened less than 2oz, so it's not a world of difference.

If you are referring to the slide being lightened 2oz, that actually is a world of difference when speaking about slides.

Take for example a standard profile 1911 slide. You can remove as much material as you want and you probably couldn't get much more than 2oz of weight difference out of it, however that difference makes a huge change in the guns function. I believe the last one I lightened I milled out pretty much every possible scrap of material within reason between the breechface and the rear of the slide (definitely the easiest place to remove significant amounts of material from a slide), leaving just enough material to support the front and rear of the firing pin; and I believe it removed just about 1oz, definitely not much more and IIRC actually less.

What you and I consider a world of difference probably don't match up. I have 9mm guns with slides that range from 8.3oz to 13.7oz. All are factory guns. Yes, taking 1.75oz (roughly the difference from 226 to X-5, although it would depend on which 226 slide version you weighed) will make a difference, but it's only a third the difference between the heaviest and lightest slides I have here, and I'm sure there are some out there that are heavier than 13.7oz.

I'm not sure what 1911 slides you've been working on, but I've got several that have more than 1oz taken out of them. Lots of Open and Limited guns have slides in the 9-10oz range. R,

So I'll just throw a random number out for ya....

10.75oz is that light or heavy for the slide on a full size 5" pistol?????

I have 9mm guns with slides that range from 8.3oz to 13.7oz. All are factory guns.

Are these all "full size" service pistols or does that include KelTec PF9 slides as well???

BTW, I probably don't have as many SIGs as you Bart ( I only have 13) but I only see 1oz difference from a typical P226 9mm slide to that of a 9mm X5 AR slide. If you have one that is 1.75oz lighter would you be interested in selling it???

[G-ManBart]

So I'll just throw a random number out for ya....

10.75oz is that light or heavy for the slide on a full size 5" pistol?????

Wow, you're the adventurous type...super!

For a gun running Minor loads, 10.75oz is heavier than what I'd want if I was building a gun for a division where they allowed extensive changes. It's not a total boat anchor, but it's not "light". All along, I've said "relatively heavy"...meaning in relation to the ammo used, not to other guns. I'm not quite sure why that gets overlooked. Plenty of guns running hotter, Major ammo have slides that are significantly lighter, without problems.

I have 9mm guns with slides that range from 8.3oz to 13.7oz. All are factory guns.

Are these all "full size" service pistols or does that include KelTec PF9 slides as well???

The slides I weighed were a variety from 5", 4.25" and 3". No, none were a Kel-Tec....Smith M&P, Glock and Kahr.

BTW, I probably don't have as many SIGs as you Bart ( I only have 13) but I only see 1oz difference from a typical P226 9mm slide to that of a 9mm X5 AR slide. If you have one that is 1.75oz lighter would you be interested in selling it???

Oh, you own more Sigs than I do, no doubt, but I have access to a big pile of them that are no longer being used regularly.

Really? Are you sure about that weight?

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http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=105135&view=findpost&p=1199659

Your words:

"My X-5 Allround slide is approx. 1.75oz lighter than a P226 slide."

Benefit of the doubt, we'll call it being right 50% of the time. Now I guess you'll want to clarify whether it was a folded steel 226 slide or a CNC'd stainless slide, or something else?

None of that changes the fact there are quite a few people running into problems with failures to extract/double feeds, often when they use lighter ammo. Many people seem to have cured the problem with more powerful ammo, some with lighter springs, some with both, and some wind up sending the gun back to Sig. It's not unique to Sigs, or X-5s, as M&Ps and Glocks have been known to have the same issues. Full size gun, relatively heavy slide (meaning capable of handling much hotter ammo) and light ammo can exaggerate an extractor problem. The fact that we don't hear the same problem with .40 X-5 owners is pretty telling. R,

Edited November 25, 2010 by G-ManBart

[staudacher]

So I'll just throw a random number out for ya....

10.75oz is that light or heavy for the slide on a full size 5" pistol?????

Wow, you're the adventurous type...super!

For a gun running Minor loads, 10.75oz is heavier than what I'd want if I was building a gun for a division where they allowed extensive changes. It's not a total boat anchor, but it's not "light". All along, I've said "relatively heavy"...meaning in relation to the ammo used, not to other guns. I'm not quite sure why that gets overlooked. Plenty of guns running hotter, Major ammo have slides that are significantly lighter, without problems.

I have 9mm guns with slides that range from 8.3oz to 13.7oz. All are factory guns.

Are these all "full size" service pistols or does that include KelTec PF9 slides as well???

The slides I weighed were a variety from 5", 4.25" and 3". No, none were a Kel-Tec....Smith M&P, Glock and Kahr.

BTW, I probably don't have as many SIGs as you Bart ( I only have 13) but I only see 1oz difference from a typical P226 9mm slide to that of a 9mm X5 AR slide. If you have one that is 1.75oz lighter would you be interested in selling it???

Oh, you own more Sigs than I do, no doubt, but I have access to a big pile of them that are no longer being used regularly.

Really? Are you sure about that weight?

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Wait for it

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http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=105135&view=findpost&p=1199659

Your words:

"My X-5 Allround slide is approx. 1.75oz lighter than a P226 slide."

Benefit of the doubt, we'll call it being right 50% of the time. Now I guess you'll want to clarify whether it was a folded steel 226 slide or a CNC'd stainless slide, or something else?

None of that changes the fact there are quite a few people running into problems with failures to extract/double feeds, often when they use lighter ammo. Many people seem to have cured the problem with more powerful ammo, some with lighter springs, some with both, and some wind up sending the gun back to Sig. It's not unique to Sigs, or X-5s, as M&Ps and Glocks have been known to have the same issues. Full size gun, relatively heavy slide (meaning capable of handling much hotter ammo) and light ammo can exaggerate an extractor problem. The fact that we don't hear the same problem with .40 X-5 owners is pretty telling. R,

Yep I did say it was 1.75oz lighter that was compared to a 40 slide. at that point I hadn't compared it to my 9mm slides as it had not occured to me that there would be that much difference between 9 and 40 slides. it is only 1oz lighter than the three 9mm milled slides I have. I have never weighed a p226 folded slide.

And don't think I am trying to say the x5 doesn't have issues. Plenty of them do. And some of the 40cal x5s have issues as well. If I were to go solely on guns that I have personally seen that have had issues, then I would be inclined to say more X5s in 40 have issues than X5s in 9. However as you have pointed out if you browse the forums it appears to be more of 9mm issue.

Maybe I'm just lucky but I have run a CZ SP-01 and a p226 down to approx 105pf for club steel challenge matches in the past with no issues it just required playing with main and recoil springs. I have not tried to run the X5 down that low but I would not be surprised if i couldn't make it work.

[-JQ-]

This DOES happen on the 40 as well...

I don.t recall the issue with my x5 tactical tho...

[JWard79]

Just wanted to give everyone that is interested an update on were I am currently (originally started this post almost a year ago). In the past year I only used my X-5 in one competition, the NTPS steel challenge/king of the hill shoot in TN. I let a buddy borrow a G-19 for this competition, and when it came down to the shoot-off he was able to shoot faster than I could shoot and cycle the slide to remove the malfunctions. This may not seem like a big difference, but on average my times are about half of what he put in that day and I had more malfunctions than I could have imagined during the final shoot-off. In the end he beat me (and for that he was the better man that day / regardless of malfunctions or excuses he posted a better time), and since that time the X-5 has been a safe queen. In all honesty I haven't had the time to work with the gun to correct the issue since then ( have been moved twice in the last year), and focused my attention on the IPSC nationals. I have not given up on the X-5, & hope to get it running again for the upcoming season.

I appreciate the attention this subject has raised since the inial post, and plan to incorporate the suggested modifications this winter. It appears as though SIG owners are a proud bunch ( and rightfully so), I just hope that the issues that I and other SIG owners have endured will be fixed and that in the future reliability will be the main talking point for this company.

[mpeltier]

I just hope that the issues that I and other SIG owners have endured will be fixed and that in the future reliability will be the main talking point for this company.