Flexmoney Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 We all talk quite a bit about our grip, stance, trigger jobs, index, elbow postion, shoulder postition, head position, pressing the trigger...whatever. I feel all of that is very important to our shooting as a whole. It all relates to efficiency and consistency...vital aspects of practical shooting. But.... For the individual shot...none of it matters one little bit. The only thing that is important is the keep the sights aligned, and on target, thru the trigger press...thru ignition of the primer and powder...and, until the bullet has left the barrel. If you do that...it is impossible to miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted June 25, 2002 Share Posted June 25, 2002 Quote: from Flexmoney on 8:22 pm on June 24, 2002 If you do that...it is impossible to miss. I wish I'd know that yesterday! I was seeing the front sight...however as I was seeing it, I was thinking...Ok...front sights on target...hit the trigger and lets go. Unfortunaly "hit the trigger...lets go" resulted in trigger jerk/slap or not following through with the shot. There's also another "mental" aspect to it. We had a stage where we had "upper panel B zone shots only" at distance with no shoots boardering the target...I could make those shots fine (because I knew if I screwed up, it would cost me) however when it came to shooting at 6" plates at the same distance, there's no "penalty" for missing (other then missing) and thats the problem. The two shots are the same....you need to treat them that way. ... so I learned something....about 12 hours too late! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 Actually I remember the stage you're talking about - and after zeroing for the first time ever a stage (yay! virgin no more!) maybe I'm not the one to be giving advice, but you're talking about the one in Bay 3, right? Where you had to engage steel through the ports and paper from boxes. OTOH I won that stage in Lim-10 so maybe I can give some advice. (Win one, zero one - there's nothing like consistency. Wish I had some.) The thing is, that wasn't an upper B-zone only stage. You had no-shoots bordering the A-zone on either side, but the entire A-zone was still there to aim for. On stages like that a lot of people choose to aim for the head, on the theory that if they miss they're as far as possible from the no-shoots. But OTOH you've got a much smaller target to aim for. We had three targets like that and I posted three 2As. It helps if you've got decent sights on the gun. This is the first match I've shot with my .09" front and .125" rear, and the sights are so much easier to see than my old set-up it's kind of eerie. If you were an 8" plate at 20 yards at that match - or an A-zone flanked by no-shoots - you were in trouble! Now I just have to stop zeroing the classifier and I'm set, right? (Edited by Duane Thomas at 8:38 pm on June 25, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 See what you have to see an call the shot and know its not a miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 See what you have to see an call the shot and know its not a miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 Duane I see that all the time! People ignore that huge, tall A zone because they are afraid of the no-shoots and go for the upper A/B, less than half the size of the full A zone. All you gotta do is get an equal amount of daylight around the front sight, then squeeze one off. Hell, you can even flinch or yank the trigger somewhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 I wanted to bump this topic up. I was posting some similar stuff and there is already good stuff added into this thread. (For some reason, it was locked and had some duplicated in it. This might have been one of the old threads that we had trouble with when the forum software up dated. Lets see how it goes.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 After I originally posted that (6yrs ago ), I started to put a little disclaimer in there. That was...as long as your gun isn't broken. That would include being properly sighted in and knowing your zeroes. I saw one Master class shooter...who is pretty accurate...burn up a whole magazine of ammo missing a piece of steel. His front sight had drifted so far to one side that it was about to fall out of the gun. He would have been better off if it had. He was shooting such a great group (beside the target, into the berm) that my other RO started to wonder if he was trying to shoot the activator wire for the mover. Anyway...his gun was broken...or off...or whatever. There was a legit reason why it wasn't hitting where he was aiming. And, it had nothing to do with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 So he was not calling his shots, or was not trusting the call, because he should have figured something was wrong somewhat quicker. Been there, mine was a loose rear sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 He was calling his shots completely and completely trusting the call. I'd say he took his first shot (on a popper/activator) as he came in...expected that it hit (from his call) and started to swing away. Noticed no report from the steel and he snapped another shot that looked good and he started to transition away. With a mental WTF, he came back and really focused for a couple shots. Then, he took a step to the side so that his bullet path wasn't hugging the wall that was almost in the way (I thought he must have been clipping the wall). After a couple of shots that where completely in the clear, he pulled the gun back and noticed that his front sight had drifted. (that might not be an exact accounting...it was something like that) That is why I think he would have been better off if the front sight had come out. He would have known it then, and could have went with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 If the bore is properly aligned with the target face and the shot is made without disturbing the alignment, and if the gun is accurate enough to hit the target, it is impossible to miss. You don't need to see anything. A good example is a Ransom machine rest. Heck you could shoot a round into the berm and then go place a target ,negating the need to even align the pistol with the target. So, where is this thread going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 4, 2008 Author Share Posted February 4, 2008 I don't know where it's going. I hope nowhere bad? When I posted it years ago, it was a way for me to realize that...if the gun was working...any misses were a result of something that I was doing. My trigger press could have been taking the gun off target. I might have been lacking visual patience or follow through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 When I posted it years ago, it was a way for me to realize that...if the gun was working...any misses were a result of something that I was doing. My trigger press could have been taking the gun off target. I might have been lacking visual patience or follow through. Yep, I agree. I have always thought sight alignment is the easy part. I only asked where you were headed in case I missed something. Some times very simple concepts can become elusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 My take is that if the bullet does not hit where you saw the sights, you did not see what you think you did. Pretty close to what Flex wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 5, 2008 Author Share Posted February 5, 2008 Yeah...I think that is the usual. (something like a broken gun being the exception) Often, we see what we think we want to see, then off our vision goes...before we actually get the trigger pulled and the round out of the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerwas Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 He was shooting such a great group (beside the target, into the berm) that my other RO started to wonder if he was trying to shoot the activator wire for the mover. TOO FUNNY! I had a deep belly laugh on this one!! I had the same thing happen to me. The only difference was it was my rear adjustable bo mar style site that was creeping up on my and I didn't know it. I was missing head shots (and didn't know it because of the longer distances we were shooting at) that I swear I was calling good. Next match the rear site gave way and the adjustment screw just collapsed and up popped the rear site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 ...you did not see what you think you did. Which, for me, raises the question: How do you know that what you saw is real, or what you wanted to see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 ...you did not see what you think you did. Which, for me, raises the question: How do you know that what you saw is real, or what you wanted to see? nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganShootist Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 (edited) This thread underlines how important it is to be patient. I have shot revolver for the past year.... and it damn well teaches you that ..... Just because you had sight alignment when the trigger pull was started....... if your eye "or mind" shifts to the next target before the shot breaks.... you miss.... or you pull the shot in the direction you were heading. I believe that when I retire the revolver the lesson it has taught me will improve my shooting with my other pistols. Edited February 5, 2008 by MichiganShootist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 This thread underlines how important it is to be patient. I have shot revolver for the past year.... and it damn well teaches you that ..... Just because you had sight alignment when the trigger pull was started....... if your eye "or mind" shifts to the next target before the shot breaks.... you miss.... or you pull the shot in the direction you were heading.I believe that when I retire the revolver the lesson it has taught me will improve my shooting with my other pistols. I would tend to agree... also you are that much more patient because you don't have all those extra rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 ...you did not see what you think you did. Which, for me, raises the question: How do you know that what you saw is real, or what you wanted to see? This is where I start to glaze over. I have trouble understanding the dynamics and terminology. After 3 years of this, while I have plenty of mike's, I'm starting not to be surprised by them, when the targets are scored. Something wasn't right when I pulled the trigger, but I did so anyway, and I can even feel a little subconcious 'bobble' when that happens. I guess this is "calling the shot (but not doing anything about it) and having problems with visual patience?" I have trouble understanding where the visual patience line ends, and calling the shot starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 (edited) ...you did not see what you think you did. Which, for me, raises the question: How do you know that what you saw is real, or what you wanted to see? This is where I start to glaze over. I have trouble understanding the dynamics and terminology. After 3 years of this, while I have plenty of mike's, I'm starting not to be surprised by them, when the targets are scored. Something wasn't right when I pulled the trigger, but I did so anyway, and I can even feel a little subconcious 'bobble' when that happens. I guess this is "calling the shot (but not doing anything about it) and having problems with visual patience?" I have trouble understanding where the visual patience line ends, and calling the shot starts. None of this is rocket science. Calling the shot is nothing more than knowing where your sights are at the moment the bullet leaves the barrel. Some would say when you broke the shot, but I think, "leaves the barrel" is more accurate. Visual Patience is nothing more than taking the time needed to get the sights on the target and keep them there until the shot is complete. I think sometimes the speak here is a little hard to follow, esp for people new to shooting. We have terminology here that isn't used anywhere else and the meaning of it becomes second nature to us, but can be obtuse for a new shooter. Edited February 5, 2008 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo23 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 This is what happens to me some times. My personnel problem is that I call my shots every time these days... Finally. Great right..... But..... My mind is still running like an old computer.... and I am moving too fast for it too keep time with the real world..... I realize the mike..... But only after I am 2 targerts further along..... Hense SLOW DOWN DUDE I am working on this very hard!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 (edited) ...you did not see what you think you did. Which, for me, raises the question: How do you know that what you saw is real, or what you wanted to see? I have trouble understanding where the visual patience line ends, and calling the shot starts. This is more or less what I was trying to say. Sometimes as I break the shot something will happen. For some reason I will not clearly see the sights, or sign off a tad too early. When this happens I make a decision based on what I know. This is a real time consumer. Visual patience (if applied) ends where you see the front sight move out of the notch. This is where the shot calling begins. Visual patience means you wait with breaking the shot until you know the gun is aimed at what you want to hit. Calling the shot is knowing where the bullet will as the shot breaks. I am interested in the little transition from aiming (visual patience) to shot calling. Edited February 5, 2008 by spook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 None of this is rocket science. Calling the shot is nothing more than knowing where your sights are at the moment the bullet leaves the barrel. Visual Patience is nothing more than taking the time needed to get the sights on the target and keep them there until the shot is complete. I think sometimes the speak here is a little hard to follow, esp for people new to shooting. We have terminology here that isn't used anywhere else and the meaning of it becomes second nature to us, but can be obtuse for a new shooter. So if you have 'visual patience,' why need to 'call the shot'? Assuming you're not aiming in the center of a no-shoot, and sights are true, if you keep the sights aligned throughout the shot, and follow-through you can't possibly miss. I'm in Spook's camp, that there's some kind of weird continuum, in which visual patience morphs into shot calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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