Tactical Division: 9 rounds in gun at the buzzer?

[Justin]

So, if you have a shotgun that's capable of holding more than nine rounds total, is it legal to stuff an extra shell or two into the magazine tube after the buzzer goes off?

Is this something that people do? Are there instances where it would confer an advantage without breaking any rules?

[TMC]

So, if you have a shotgun that's capable of holding more than nine rounds total, is it legal to stuff an extra shell or two into the magazine tube after the buzzer goes off?

Is this something that people do? Are there instances where it would confer an advantage without breaking any rules?

It varies from match to match. At SSM3G it is allowed so I bring my 10 round tube. Last year I find a place where it was advantageous to load right after the buzzer, but in the middle of one of the stages I had the thing full.

[D.Hayden]

At IMHG matches.. like TMC said.

USPSA matches.. never

[Jesse Tischauser]

I use a +8 Nordic tube with a shortened spring and long end cap. I can hold 12+1. There are several occasions where the extra capacity helps. I find that when you have to pick tbe gun up and move to a shooting position before do any shooting you can load an extra 2-4 rounds if you need them. I also find that the first 8 of the 12 rounds go into the tube a lot easier than 8 go into an 8 round tube. While practicing reloads at home I can load 8 in the 12 rounder about .2-.5 seconds faster than I can load 8 in the 8 rounder.

[Neil Smith]

So, if you have a shotgun that's capable of holding more than nine rounds total, is it legal to stuff an extra shell or two into the magazine tube after the buzzer goes off?

Is this something that people do? Are there instances where it would confer an advantage without breaking any rules?

Its legal in all IPSC Shotgun matches in both Standard Semi Auto & Standard Pump Divisions.

The USA is hosting the IPSC Pan-Am Shotgun Championships this year in Kentucky, so a good oportunity to try it.

N

[TMC]

Last year at the Ironman is was what ever your gun would hold so for me it was 11 in the tube (it will actually hold 11 bird shot but only 10 slugs) one in the chamber and one on the carrier. 13 at the start, woohoo!

[Wicked Wrister]

Why not just shoot Open division if you want more than eight in the tube. The matches I've shot is 8+1 and either you start "shotgun to division capacity (9)" or "bolt closed, chamber empty, tube to division capacity (8)". The Benelli shooters would ghost load a 10th round on the carrier when the chamber was to be loaded, but that was it. The tube could not hold more than eight and if you could ghost load at the start, so be it. At Fort Benning a couple years back, Taran Butler was kicked out of Tactical and into Open part way through the match because his tube was found to hold more than eight. Even though he was only loading eight to start, the rules said the tube could not hold more than eight. He failed to plug the tube and was bumped into open. He went on to win open division with his tactical gear anyway, but the point is, Tactical should be 8+1 in my opinion. Obviously the rules vary, so read them carefully, as most of us could not win Open with Open gear, let alone Tactical gear.

I also remember a rule somewhere that your mag tube could not extend more than 1" beyond your muzzle. In order to have a 12 round tube you had to have a 24" or 26" barrel. I have not seen that rule since, not sure if it exists anywhere anymore.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Why not just shoot Open division if you want more than eight in the tube. The matches I've shot is 8+1 and either you start "shotgun to division capacity (9)" or "bolt closed, chamber empty, tube to division capacity (8)". The Benelli shooters would ghost load a 10th round on the carrier when the chamber was to be loaded, but that was it. The tube could not hold more than eight and if you could ghost load at the start, so be it. At Fort Benning a couple years back, Taran Butler was kicked out of Tactical and into Open part way through the match because his tube was found to hold more than eight. Even though he was only loading eight to start, the rules said the tube could not hold more than eight. He failed to plug the tube and was bumped into open. He went on to win open division with his tactical gear anyway, but the point is, Tactical should be 8+1 in my opinion. Obviously the rules vary, so read them carefully, as most of us could not win Open with Open gear, let alone Tactical gear.

I also remember a rule somewhere that your mag tube could not extend more than 1" beyond your muzzle. In order to have a 12 round tube you had to have a 24" or 26" barrel. I have not seen that rule since, not sure if it exists anywhere anymore.

Why not just be able to load more in the tube as long as everyone starts with the same capacity? Pistols mags hold different mounts, ARr mags hold different amounts. Its fun to have options and be able to use a longer tube and load 12 when you have time to do so.

Edited April 29, 2010 by jtischauser

[TruePunisher]

Having the gun only hold 8+1 should be the limit for Tactical in my belief, but that's just me. If you want a longer tube (for sake of ease in loading) that is fine, but it should have a plug. Anything over 8+1 should be Open and Open should not have any limit. Make a new class like a Modified Tactical or something for the people that want to use longer tubes that hold more then 8+1 in the gun and don't want to be in Open...

I guess I just think there should be some kind of limitations that are shared through out the different matches/rules like the 140mm pistol mag dealy. If there are, let me know, but it seems like the recent phenomenon is the gun can hold as many as you want after the buzzer. If that be 8+1, great or 10+1 awesome, 12+1 so be it...

Ok, now everybody that disagrees with me try not to hurt my feelings in your responses... I have thin skin and I don't like it when my eyes get all puffy from crying.

[Wicked Wrister]

Why not just be able to load more in the tube as long as everyone starts with the same capacity? Pistols mags hold different mounts, Ar mags hold different amounts. Its fun to have options and be able to use a longer tube and load 12 when you have time to do so.

Sure, but then why not allow He-Man to use 10+ round single stack mags, or more than 20 round rifle mags? Because those are the rules. That's the point of that division. There are certainly aftermarket products available that allow one to upgrade their old MIA or 1911 beyond it's original configuration and capacity.

I may be mistaken, but I thought one of the rules of Tactical division (at least used to be) 8+1 in the shotgun. The idea of the division is tactical shooting and yes, one could argue that a Tech-Loader is tactical, but you know what I mean. That is an extreme example, but where do you stop? Look at pistol divisions. It seems to me that it started all Open. Then Limited came in to support what is now Single Stack, then Lim-10 came in to support what is now Single Stack and now Single Stack is here to support that old 1911. Would you want to shoot in Tactical against someone with the X-Rail? As long as they only loaded to 8+1 before that 40 yard trail hike to the next target array?

Edited April 29, 2010 by Wicked Wrister

[Jesse Tischauser]

Would you want to shoot in Tactical against someone with the X-Rail? As long as they only loaded to 8+1 before that 40 yard trail hike to the next target array?

I wouldn't mind at all. We both have to get the required rounds in our gun some time. He can load and walk and I can load while walking, then run, then shoot, then reload again likely before he can walk and load 20-30 rounds in 40 yards.

Now that you mention the XRail. Is it legal in tactical division if you load it by hand? Its not a box fed magazine. I need to go reread the rules. I can't see how it would help though as you almost never have enough time between shooting positions to load 20-30 rounds before you are ready to shoot again.

I just reread the USPSA Limited Shotgun rules and it says "Maximum of 9 rounds loaded" there is nothing that says at the start so does that mean you can never load more than 9 or is the XRail allowed if you only start with 9?

I also was reminded that in Open you can only start with 11 in the gun on a loaded gun start. That is like whiping before you poop, it don't make no sense???

Edited April 29, 2010 by jtischauser

[Wicked Wrister]

I think limiting open to 11 is the stupidest thing ever. What heck is the point of "open" then? Those are USPSA rules and I should clarify that I never shoot USPSA multi-gun matches. Not because I don't want to, just never have. I understand that 3-Gun does not (or did not) have a set of rules like IPSC pistol for everyone hosting a sanctioned match to follow. Every match I have attended has had some variation of equipment and scoring rules unique to the host. That being said, my earlier comments are based on those experiences and how those matches were administered. When it comes to USPSA multi-gun, I've never seen a rulebook, so to be fair, I may have been inaccurate on some earlier comments regarding "rules". I just don't think of 3-Gun in the USPSA context. Regardless, your points about tactical capacity are valid, but at least for now, I respectfully disagree.

I do, however, think that limiting Open shooters in any way is ridiculous. If someone wants to show up with a semiauto, belt-fed shotgun with a little red wagon in tow, I don't care. That's what Open is all about if you ask me.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Wicked Wrister

[TruePunisher]

I also think that the limits on Open class are ridiculous. Why would people think about and create new and exciting products to bring to the sport with the intent for their idea to be used in open, just to be out lawed because it is "too" Open. Something like the XRAIL as an example. A very innovative product, but if you can only start with 11 WTF is the point? Seems like the only true Open class is Trooper class...

Either way I guess I will be getting a longer tube for the Benelli so I can keep up with the rest of ya'll and keep the shorter tube in the bag in case it is ever needed. I don't want to show up to a match and have everybody laugh at me and my little tube.

[TMC]

Either way I guess I will be getting a longer tube for the Benelli so I can keep up with the rest of ya'll and keep the shorter tube in the bag in case it is ever needed. I don't want to show up to a match and have everybody laugh at me and my little tube.

That is my attitude, I don't make the rules so I'm not going to argue the merits one way or another where it won't make any difference, but I will be ready to take full advantage of what every they me be at any given match.

[Jesse Tischauser]

If someone wants to show up with a semiauto, belt-fed shotgun with a little red wagon in tow, I don't care. That's what Open is all about if you ask me.

Thanks. I see your points as well. I'm going to game ad much as the rules allow. I will say that I am not a huge fan of all the different rules at tbe diferent matches but since nobody can agree so be it.

I would like to see someone with a belt fed shotgun. Lol. That sounds like fun!

Either way I guess I will be getting a longer tube for the Benelli so I can keep up with the rest of ya'll and keep the shorter tube in the bag in case it is ever needed. I don't want to show up to a match and have everybody laugh at me and my little tube.

LMAO! Your tube may be short but it sure is skinny!

[smokshwn]

Why not just be able to load more in the tube as long as everyone starts with the same capacity? Pistols mags hold different mounts, Ar mags hold different amounts. Its fun to have options and be able to use a longer tube and load 12 when you have time to do so.

Sure, but then why not allow He-Man to use 10+ round single stack mags, or more than 20 round rifle mags? Because those are the rules. That's the point of that division. There are certainly aftermarket products available that allow one to upgrade their old MIA or 1911 beyond it's original configuration and capacity.

I may be mistaken, but I thought one of the rules of Tactical division (at least used to be) 8+1 in the shotgun. The idea of the division is tactical shooting and yes, one could argue that a Tech-Loader is tactical, but you know what I mean. That is an extreme example, but where do you stop? Look at pistol divisions. It seems to me that it started all Open. Then Limited came in to support what is now Single Stack, then Lim-10 came in to support what is now Single Stack and now Single Stack is here to support that old 1911. Would you want to shoot in Tactical against someone with the X-Rail? As long as they only loaded to 8+1 before that 40 yard trail hike to the next target array?

How about this, why not just follow the rules at the match you are attending and utilize the rules to your best advantage. If you want to handicap yourself so be it, but your idea of what "tactical" means and what the rules state at many matches is different. If the match director wants to limit the rounds available to the shooter, let them clarify/change/dictate their rules.

[bigbrowndog]

but Craig, then that would mean the rules would need to be read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you expect too much from people!!!!!!!!

it would be soooooo much easier if we just shot single shot rifles and SG's and 6 shot revolvers then we could just fill the holes!!!!!!!

Trapr

[TruePunisher]

After looking at the DPMS Tri-Gun rules... why cant a Saiga be used in the Tactical class? Same with the FNH match? There is no mention of a "mag fed" shotgun... Couldn't a person just start with a mag that has eight rounds in it and one in the chamber? Is a "magazine" a "speed loader" or what is their definition?

Just a question... just a question...

Edited May 3, 2010 by TruePunisher

[Jesse Tischauser]

You can use a saiga in tactical class at our local OKC 3 gun matches.

[RiggerJJ]

After looking at the DPMS Tri-Gun rules... why cant a Saiga be used in the Tactical class? Same with the FNH match? There is no mention of a "mag fed" shotgun... Couldn't a person just start with a mag that has eight rounds in it and one in the chamber? Is a "magazine" a "speed loader" or what is their definition?

Just a question... just a question...

Load 8 rounds into a tube fed shotgun and note the time required...

Load a 8 round mag into a box mag fed shotgun and note the time...

the box fed mag will be faster every time.

Conclusion; the box fed mag IS a 'speed' loader.

jj

[smokshwn]

After looking at the DPMS Tri-Gun rules... why cant a Saiga be used in the Tactical class? Same with the FNH match? There is no mention of a "mag fed" shotgun... Couldn't a person just start with a mag that has eight rounds in it and one in the chamber? Is a "magazine" a "speed loader" or what is their definition?

Just a question... just a question...

Load 8 rounds into a tube fed shotgun and note the time required...

Load a 8 round mag into a box mag fed shotgun and note the time...

the box fed mag will be faster every time.

Conclusion; the box fed mag IS a 'speed' loader.

jj

Not really cuz it took me just about as long to put the rounds in the mag as it does in the tube

[StealthyBlagga]

Not really cuz it took me just about as long to put the rounds in the mag as it does in the tube

In that context, I'd be totally OK with you running your Saiga 12 in Tactical if you only start with 9 rounds in the gun and all your other magazines start empty on your belt. After the beep, you can stuff as many rounds as you want into your magazines as fast as you like

Edited May 4, 2010 by StealthyBlagga

[Religious Shooter]

Genius!

[bigbrowndog]

your question about the DPMS trigun, would receive the correct answer if it were asked to the DPMS trigun MD or match coordinator and not here. here you get speculation and interpretation, from the MD you get permission or a refusal.

Trapr

[Wicked Wrister]

your question about the DPMS trigun, would receive the correct answer if it were asked to the DPMS trigun MD or match coordinator and not here. here you get speculation and interpretation, from the MD you get permission or a refusal.

Trapr

Good point Trapr. I'm guessing Lea could give the "Yea or Nay" on this.

Thanks