Possible cure to round dumping?

[Vlad]

Since it clearly states in the rule book that it is illegal, it is black and white as cheating. Because other people do it doesn't make it OK. Is it OK for pro athletes to take performance enhancing drugs since other players did it? There are a lot of us out there who don't round dump. As long as you are knowingly breaking a rule to beat us, you are a cheater.

I don't shoot IDPA so feel free to booh me out of the joint, but I actually found the conversation interesting from a rule making and match management in the world of shooting sports point of view. At the end of the day it is a game, and people want to win it, or place higher then they did last week. It is pretty clear to me that people in this thread are agreeing that this particular rule is being broken all the time. The guy that wants to win comes up to the firing line and looks at the scenario and thinks to himself "I can shave 1 or 2 seconds if I dump a round. I don't know if others have done it but I've read on the internet that almost every one does it. I don't want to lose because some guy cheated, so I'll level the playing field and cheat too."

Is it against the rules .. sure, but so is elbowing people in basketball, kneeing people in soccer, etc, and yet breaking those rules in a subtle way is as much part of those games as placing the ball where it needs to go, and everyone playing, officiating, and watching the games being played knows that and accepts it a part of the game.

On the other hand punching people in the mouth is right out (leaving hand to hand combat games aside, and maybe hockey and rugby but I repeat myself). In the game of IDPA you need to decide if round dumping is the same as careful shove or a punch in the mouth, and it sounds to me like the shooters as a group have decided it is on the shove side. Either consider it part of the mental game or change the rule to classify it as a punch in the mouth or to just eliminate it.

[Glshooter]

If you knowingly violate a rule to gain advantage you are a cheater/gamer/whatever.

If you roll a stop sign out in the middle of nowhere, speed up on a yellow light, run 1 mph over the posted speed limit, fudge on your income tax or your expense account, do part of your kid's homework, tell the waitress you kid is 11 instead of 12, arrive at work late and not doc your time and yada yada yada... You are also a cheater.

IMO - If you do any of these things and call others cheaters... you are a cheater/gamer/whatever .... and a hypocrite to go along with it.

I prefer to be called a "gamer" myself....

Does rolling through a stop sign, speeding up on a yellow light, etc.... deny someone else a win that they deserve and you don't?

[Chris Christian]

This has been a great thread! A +1 to Bones on his throught that you don't see revolver shooters whining about the rules on round dumping (and it was nice to see you again, Bones, at FL IDPA State.. Congratulations on SSR Champ!). Wheelgunners can't afford throwawy shots, anyway, so we don't sweat it much. With that said... any rule that is so subjective in in its interpretation & enforcement that four different SOs can look at the same chain of events and come to different conclusions is a rule that might need some rewriting & more thorough clarification. Especially since a Vickers Count COF says you can "shoot all ya want". My last .02 cents on this.

Chris Christian (Thoroughly Thumped in SSR by Bones at FL State)

[Jim Watson]

Since there is a good deal of repetition in this thread, I will repeat my stance.

The "dumping" penalty is a direct contradiction of Vickers Count.

The definition of Vickers Count doesn't say I can fire as many shots as desired unless it facilitates a reload.

The definition of Vickers count doesn't say I can fire as many shots as desired but will be penalized for any "extras."

The definition of Vickers Count does say I can fire as many shots as desired.

Either amend the rule book definition of Vickers count or drop the dumping penalty.

I don't like the idea of an extra shot penalty that would convert every stage into Limited Vickers for anybody who was trying to be competitive.

There is historical precedent for round dumping anyhow. One account said it was commonly done in WW II PTO to empty a Garand in the general direction of the enemy to allow reloading with 8 shots instead of waiting for the next attack with fewer in the gun.

[Bones]

Thanks Chris.

Incidentally, I tac loaded my revolver on stage 8 of the FL States rather than dump a round through the window. The SOs spent a few minutes looking on the ground for a round that was in my pocket .

That was a great match. You are lucky to have USPSA 2010 National Revolver Champion Cliff Walsh shooting IDPA matches with you, even if he isn't a Rocket Scientist (he knows what that means).

Craig

Edited March 13, 2010 by Bones

[Steve Koski]

You're not whining bones, but I hear it from some local shooters every time a stage isn't 6 shot neutral. I'm just about to the point that I don't care. Forgetting about 6 shot neutrality makes COF design so much more flexible and the stages are more varied and interesting.

Koski

[Bones]

You're not whining bones, but I hear it from some local shooters every time a stage isn't 6 shot neutral. I'm just about to the point that I don't care. Forgetting about 6 shot neutrality makes COF design so much more flexible and the stages are more varied and interesting.

Koski

I know Steve, I feel your pain. Don't you just hate that pesky rulebook?

By the way - how come the SSP MA classifier score isn't 71 seconds?

Craig

[freeidaho]

Is it against the rules .. sure, but so is elbowing people in basketball, kneeing people in soccer, etc, and yet breaking those rules in a subtle way is as much part of those games as placing the ball where it needs to go, and everyone playing, officiating, and watching the games being played knows that and accepts it a part of the game.

Wow, I am learnng a lot. This situation ethics approach brings up some interesting questions. When using situational ethics where does one draw the line? Is the only yardstick being caught?

What if one could get away with the following: (these don't even have any rules in the rulebook, so surely they are allowed....)

--What about taping over a good shot on a competitor's distant target before it is scored, without anyone knowing about it?

--What about taking the timer out of someones range bag and keeping it?

--What about throwing a few pre-loaded squib rounds into your competitor's ammo supply?

--What about pissing off your toughest competitor right tbe before he shoots?

--What about adding 0.1 seconds or 1 point down to each of your competitor's scores when you are the scorekeeper?

--What about taking a ball point pen and making a hole in a non-threat on your competitor's run. (Done to me in fun, but me and the SO were none the wiser.)

--What about putting $10 dollars into the signup money bag and taking out $20?

--What about using your position as SO or MD to give your toughest competitor's a worse score through penalties?

--What about using your position as SO to readout a higher time to the scorekeeper than is actually on the timer and the erasing it?

--What about smashing your competitor's dropped magazine into the mud?

--What about keeping your competitor's dropped magazine?

--What about calling your competitor's cell phone while he is shooting and you know it is on?

--The list goes on, I am not really good at this...

One can always make up some non-sense explanation that blames the rulebook, or blames everyone else. From what I am learning in this thread, I have no idea where the line would be drawn. The line so far seems to be anything you can get away from....

kr

[Jake Di Vita]

Pretty sure there is a rule for each and every one of those instances that doesn't involve diving "intent" through clairvoyance. I'd also say all those things you suggested would count as the "punch in the face" referred to in the rest of the post you quoted.

The point of the thread has little to do with what you can get away with and more to do with adjusting a rule that quite obviously is impossible to uniformly enforce. All these extraneous discussions are moot if this rule is 86'd.

[Vlad]

Yeah, I'd say all of those are "punch the face" kinda things. You can argue ethics as much you want, but if you poll the shooting population about any of those they will all tell you that it is crap that no one should ever do, where the round dumping seems to be pretty universally accepted (or at least as per this thread, again never shot IDPA, in this mess from the rules writing point of view). Pretty upstanding members of this forum have come out and said they do it, and don't think any of them would be accused of doing the things on your list.

It is a game. If the rules are broken (and as the mind reading interface is a long ways coming, this rule seems broken) then people who want to win will bend those rules. Fix the damn rule, one way or another. Or maybe in other words don't hate the player, hate the game.

Edited to add: And another thing, I don't think I've ever ever seen any of the behaviors you describe. Who the hell do you shoot with that these kind of ideas even come to you? In my opinion all the things on those list would fall under the "Get out and never come back" rule, not a simple FTDR or whatever the penalty for a dumped round is.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Vlad

[Glshooter]

How about having illegal mods to your gun when you know there won't be an equipment check? Or downloading your ammo below power factor when you know there won't be a chrono? Those aren't "punch in the face" infractions. But are those OK too?

[freeidaho]

Wow, what a vigorous response to a thought problem. Sorry to take y'all out of your comfort zone. I guess here must be a concept called an honest cheater, that only goes so far.

Just what makes y'all think that someone that would dump rounds wouldn't do anything else illegal. What about ghost reloads? Or GI shooters question.

kr

Answer: You don't.

[Duane Thomas]

Since this is beginning to get a bit heated, I'm going to close this one down, at least for now, so folks can cool off. I'll consider reopening it in the future if anyone genuinely has something new to add, though frankly it does seem like this topic has been talked to death.