DQ or Not?

[wmiller45]

Last Sunday while at the local IPSC match, my friend had what I call an AD. They DQ'd him, only to re-instate a short while later. The scenario was:

He had just finished shooting a stage, and before the RO could say "unload and show clear", the gun went off as the shooter was reaching for the charging handle, visibly startling my friend, the RO, and everyone else standing there (me included). It was about 2 seconds after he had completed the stage. The round when into the left berm, about 5 yards out, but nowhere near a target (nor was he attemting to engage a target).

My friend said the hammer followed (it never did it again afterwards), the RO didn't see his finger on the trigger, but DQ'd him. I don't know if the RO was actually looking at his trigger finger.

At this point, several people chimed in that the gun was pointed in a safe direction, the discharge didn't leave the shooting area, and it was more that 3 meters away. The RO relented, allowing my friend to continue the match.

The DQ should have stood, right?

[Flexmoney]

It doesn't appear to be an AD (as defined by 10.3.1).

It would appear to be Unsafe Gun Handling.  Sounds like the shooter was clearly in the unloading process.  (US 10.3.2.1)

If his gun did break (10.3.2.4), he would be required to present the gun the the Range Master (or his delegate) for inspection, who would inspect and test to see if a breakage casued the discharge.  If the gun was broken, the shooter could fix and continue...receiving a zero for the stage.

That is my take on it.  I could be wrong.

[Shooter Grrl]

The "gallery" was correct.  No DQ based on the fact that it hit the berm and because the RO hadn't given the "unload" command he was still in the act of completing the course of fire.

[jhgtyre]

It sounds like the RO weighed his decision vs. new information from the peanut gallery and gave the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.  What a concept!

-jhgtyre

[Flexmoney]

I think it may be a gunhandling issue.

I agree with SG on that he was still in the act of completing the course of fire.  In fact, the command is "If you are finished, Unload and Show Clear".  The shooter, after the above command, could decide that they didn't like a "D" hit.  They could stoke up a fresh mag and continue shooting.

[Shooter Grrl]

I've stated before that if you startle me as your RO we're gonna stop shooting and clear our heads before you get to shoot again

The RO made the absolute best choice in this scenario.  DQ - discuss, reinstate if you're wrong.

(Edited by Shooter Grrl at 10:49 am on July 25, 2002)

[wmiller45]

Thanks everyone.

It was obvious to everyone (including the RO) that he was done shooting. The RO had just started into the "If you are finished..." when the gun when bang. The shooter was reaching for the gun with his weak hand (to unload and show clear?) when it discharged.

I'd forgotten about the Unsafe Handling catchall. I believe it definately falls under that catagory.

Does unsafe gun handling result in a DQ?

Bill M.

[Flexmoney]

This is the rule that I think might apply.  

US 10.3.2.1

It would be up to the RO to make the call.

Here is the link to look it up online (if you don't have your Red Rule Book handy).

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/Rules14_2001.pdf

[wmiller45]

Ok, that is what I was thinking. Thanks.

I'm not going to throw this in my friend's face, as I think he feels bad enough. BUT....I think I'll do a little coaching on the basics for him again.

Bill M.

[Flexmoney]

Along the same lines...

I was running the clipboard for a stage.  The shooter finished up, and the RO gave the "unload and show clear"  (though, not the "if you are finished...").  The shooter then dropped his mag, racked out the bullet in the pipe and pulled the trigger...while pointing the gun safely down range.  There was no discharge (the gun was clear), but the shooter had pulled the trigger without showing the RO that the gun was clear.  The shooter hadn't holstered.

What do ya'll think?

The RO kinda ripped into the shooter.  

[kbear38S]

---

The shooter then dropped his mag, racked out the bullet in the pipe and pulled the trigger...while pointing the gun safely down range. ...The RO kinda ripped into the shooter.  

---

I don't know that there's any point in ripping into the shooter. I just repeat "show clear" and wait for them to show an empty chamber.

[David Benzick]

When a competitor drops the hammer before I see the gun is clear I just have him show clear and drop the hammer again. Why get all worked up over a situation where, if there was an AD, it would be into the berm and only the competitor would have to pay the price?

[wmiller45]

I agree with David, why give the shooter any grief? There was nothing unsafe done.

Maybe the RO just didn't like being in control? Just kidding.

Bill M.

[Vince Pinto]

Firstly, and just for clarity, please note the comment in the original post "2 seconds after he had completed the stage" may mean the competitor was done shooting but it does not mean the COF was over, because this does not occur until "completion of the holster portion" (See Rule 8.3.7).

The term "AD" or "Accidental Discharge" is often incorrectly used to describe an "OD" or an "Ooops! Discharge". See Rule 10.3.1 for a definition of an AD (e.g. over the berm or the shot strikes the ground within 3 metres etc.).

In all other cases of possible "unsafe gun handling", we must consider other rules, such as 10.3.2. etc.

In the original question, the comment "the gun went off as the shooter was reaching for the charging handle" means a finger on his strong hand must have been on the trigger. The claim that the hammer followed is impossible, because a discharge from "hammer follow through" can only occur after racking and releasing the slide without activating the trigger.

If the competitor was not moving at the time, Rules 10.3.2.2. and 10.3.12 would not apply.

The question is "Was he loading, unloading, reloading or correcting a malfunction during the discharge?" If yes, then Rules 10.3.2.1. or 10.3.10 or 10.3.11 would apply, and a DQ is correct.

If not, then it sounds to me like an "OD" and therefore a DQ is not necessary.

[wmiller45]

"The question is "Was he loading, unloading, reloading or correcting a malfunction during the discharge?" If yes, then Rules 10.3.2.1. or 10.3.10 or 10.3.11 would apply, and a DQ is correct."

He was unloading.

Bill M.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Bill,

Since you stated in your original post that the actions taken by the competitor were done prior to the RO asking "If you are finished, unload and show clear", those actions were not conducted during the unloading process. This is no different to the competitor doing exactly the same thing halfway through the COF.

Perhaps my last reply was not as clear as it could have been but:

"Loading"  is generally accepted to mean your actions between issuance of the "LAMR" and the "Standby" commands.

"Unloading" is generally accepted to mean your actions after the "UL&SC" command is given.

At all other times, similar actions are considered "reloading" or "malfunction clearance". Was he doing that or taking an extra shot?

Of course I realise competitors sometimes pre-empt the RO's "UL&SC" command but I, for one, still always issue all commands, even if the competitor is already standing there with his slide locked back. The same applies if the competitor drops the hammer and holsters without incident before I've had a chance to personally confirm his gun is clear.

By not taking any shortcuts, the RO can eliminate the "loading" and "unloading" criteria when considering which rules apply.

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 12:53 pm on July 27, 2002)

[wmiller45]

Hi Vince,

It was apparent to everyone what he was doing. If I remember correctly, he'd already dropped the magazine from the gun and put it on his belt.

Your position is that since the RO hasn't said anything yet, that the COF is not completed? Ok, I understand I guess. You're sounding like a lawyer though.

I guess it comes under the OD rather than AD definition, but it was clearly an accident. Heck, the shooter nearly jumped out of his shorts.

Bill M.

[Flexmoney]

I wasn't aware of all the differences between loading/unloading and reloading.  Sometimes the "lawyer talk" is needed to help us all understand the rules.

In this case, it doesn't appear to make any difference.  US 10.3.2.1 says ...loading, reloading, unloading...

So...the question then becomes one of whether the shooter was doing some type of unloading/reloading, or if the shooter was taking an extra shoot.  (good point Vince)

We have an RO class with Arnie Christianson in a week.  I'll try to work this question in.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi again Bill,

I'm not sure which came first: The chicken lawyer or the egg lawyer

Yes, unfortunately these days we're stuck with DRLs (Damn Range Lawyers) because some of the appeals we have to deal with at Arbitrations are very creative.

Just to further clarify one point: Although it's not carved into stone, the unloading process has not really begun until the RO issues the first of the "end game" commands.

On the other hand, the end of the COF is specifically stated in Rule 8.3.7 (i.e. on completion of the holster portion).

Kyle: Please give my best regards to Arnie when you see him.

[Nik Habicht]

I disagree that the unloading process begins when the RO issues the command.  Since the command is "If you are finished, unload and show clear" it would seem to me that competitor action is required to begin the unloading process.  After all, that 5 second break could be the shooter checking for all his hits.....  

[Singlestack]

I witnessed a case of Master Class Whining yesterday. I DQ'ed a Master shooter yesterday and, IMO, he intimated the RM into reversing my call.

Here is what happened. The starting position had the gun loaded on a table and the shooter sitting in a chair. Upon start signal retrieve gun and engage targets thru a port built on top of table. It was a classifier but I don't remember which number right now and the results are not posted yet.

When the shooter grabbed the gun, it went off. He did not have his thumb all the way under the gun yet and the gun (open with sidewinder slide racker) was still on the table. The bullet made a 6in long groove in the table then nicked a target that was less than 3 meters away.

I DQ'ed him for unsafe gun handling.

He went and found the RM while I was still RO'ing other shooters on the same stage without me knowing about it and quoted rule 10.3.1.1 to the RM and asked for a reshoot. The RM, without even asking me what happened, issued a reshoot/reinstatement.

When I asked the RM, before the reshoot, how he could overturn my unsafe gun handling call, he told me I should have been there when the shooter protested my call. When I explained that I did not know the shooter was protesting, he appologized for making the call without asking me what happened but quoted rule 11.2 and said that the call was already made and he was not going to change it.

Everyone on the squad agreed with me and could not believe that the guy was actually going to accept the reshoot.

I decided it was not going to ruin my day and smiled and said ok.

[Jake Di Vita]

I see that as a real bad call by the RM. At the very LEAST he should have talked to both of you before making a call.

[TheOtherErik]

Weather or not the RM made the right call, he still should have discussed the matter with you before making his final decision.

[omnia1911]

I would have DQed him for an Accidental Discharge 10.3.1, and for 10.3.12, as it relates to 8.5.1.2.

11.3 states that the Range Master must be summoned and asked to rule. I would interpret that as the Range Master must be brought to the stage to make a ruling before the next shooter commences with his COF. Only appeals to a committee should be allowed to take place off of the stage in question.

I think you got the shaft, Singlestack.

[dogdoc]

I can't believe the RM made that call without looking into the circumstances!  I also can't believe the audacity of the shooter to question your call when you are both standing there looking at a hole in the table.  It would be quite obvious that he wasn't engaging a target when that shot was fired.  

You must of had a hell of a prize table at your club match to bring out that type of behavior.