Weakhand Mandatory Reloads

[Rufus The Bum]

2 part Question:

Part 1.

For this weekend, I'm considering setting a week-handed 3 target Bill Drill. Seeing that there will be 2 mandatory reloads in this drill, would it be legal to specify a weekhanded reload? Thought I'd ask now instead of waiting till match day.

I'm gearing more towards standard drills these days. I prefer to set 3 or 4 string drills of different flavors instead of setting one BIG stage like most. However, the problem I've found with having 3 strings is that alot of guys don't bring enough mags to be able to finish without topping off their mags.

Part 2.

Lets say I set a 4 string drill and the round count comes out the about 50 rounds for the ENTIRE set of 4. Is this practice frowned upon in USPSA?

[Garfield]

Hi,

Part 1: Are you talking IPSC or USPSA ?

What do you mean by weak-handed reload ? Do you want to force the competitors to make a reload with one hand only ?

The almost-current IPSC rules say about weak-handed shooting/reloading that you can use your strong hand while making a reload (10.2.8)

So if you want to force a competitor to use one hand only for a reload, you can't.

[GvU]

Yes, but do observe 1.1.5.3 where "The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.".

John

That's from the IPSC Rulebook jan 2004

[Garfield]

Ah yes, I already thought I had overlooked something but couldn't quite put my finger on it.

This has been discussed previously, see for instance : http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ak%20hand&st=15

(Search on "weak hand")

But, that discussion deals with the "old" rules.

In the 2004 rules things seem to have changed a bit. Per the "old" rules, one was not allowed to use both hands for a reload (10.1.4.9), but in the new rules this seems to be allowed (10.2.8). However, how this combines with 1.1.5.3 which says that the prescribed hand must be used "exclusively" puzzles me. My guess would be that 1.1.5.3 is only meant for shooting, and that for reloading two hands are allowed per 10.2.8.

The rule numbers in the 2004 IPSC handgun rules that deal with specific weak hand issues are (sorry i cannot quote them now as the PDF I have is protected ) :

1.1.5.3 Freestyle

8.2.4 Weak hand draw

10.2.8 Weak hand specific penalties

What do you think ?

[Flexmoney]

A couple of quick points from the current (14th,2001) USPSA rule book.

Standard Exercise is defined as a COF with more than one seperately timed component string (US6.1.2)

Standard Exercise has no more than 24 rounds or 6 per string or 12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified. (US 1.2.2.1)

Weak Hand...one procedural for...the following...Faults by using the other arm or hand to reload, unless the reload is part of clearing the malfunction. (US 10.1.4.9)

[ErikW]

If you mandate a reload, do it only after a freestyle or strong hand engagement; do not mandate a reload after a weak hand engagement. There may not be a rule against it, but it's just not cool. (Some would say it's just not safe.)

[JFD]

I agree with Erik. A weak hand reload is very uncool.

I would think this would irritate most every shooter at the match, something that most stage designers try and avoid.

[kimel]

I have been told by some that were there that "back in the day" weak hand reloads were done fairly routinely and, since the premise is that the strong hand is disabled, involved only using the weakhand. The technique involved clamping the pistol between the knees to do the reload.

I played with it one evening during dry fire and I think I figured it out but I sure would hate to do it under pressure. It would be sooooo simple to DQ doing this that I would be tempted to just take the procedurals.

[ErikW]

I'm not even talking about a mandated weak-hand-only reload, which is just grossly out of place in today's game. I'm talking about mandating a reload after a weak-hand engagement, when the gun is still in the weak hand. If the next enagement is weak-hand-only, the shooter will either try to put the magazine (or moon clip) in with his or her strong hand, or switch the gun to the strong hand, do a standard reload, then switch the gun back to weak hand. Again, this just isn't the place for that nonsense.

Rufus, Flex$ quoted the applicable rules as far as rounds. Your 3-target/2-reload Bill Drill isn't going to work in a single string. A 2-target BD would work, shooting 6, reloading, shooting 6, for a 12 round string.

[Rufus The Bum]

Rufus, Flex$ quoted the applicable rules as far as rounds. Your 3-target/2-reload Bill Drill isn't going to work in a single string. A 2-target BD would work, shooting 6, reloading, shooting 6, for a 12 round string.

You are correct, I should have said a 3 target bill drill with ONE reload, shot stronghanded and a second string, same targets, shot weekendad for a total of 2 mandatory reloads.

Stronghanded reloads probably aren't the cool thing to do considering most people at my club are just plinkers, maybe with a more experienced crowd, it might not be such a big deal. TJ showed me how to do it and I was like "Holy Shiznet" it's like 5 times faster than transfereing the gun back and forth twice.

It's just food for thought, that's all...

[mcoliver]

Are you guys talking about this kind of reload? It's a sequence of pics, actually, from Eric's site. I tried doing it last night and it does seem faster (with practice, of course) than transfering back and forth between hands. It piqued my interest when I saw the pics and checked some IPSC classifiers invloving weak hand shooting with comstock scoring (yah, like running the gun dry because of lack of weak hand shooting practice yet you're considering practicing the weird reload instead..smart... )

[tightloop]

Back in the Day, we did them routinely, no problems with safety, or DQ. You cannot run the Cooper Assault without a weakhand only draw for example. Have the new generation of shooters gotten unsafe to the point that they can't do a weak hand only reload? We always did it between the knees or behind the knee while turned sideways, did not seem to be a safety issue, then.

[lynn jones]

the idea of not having a weak hand reload is one of a practical matter. the premise is that the the strong hand has been disabled (as in you have taken a D hit) that's why you're using your weak hand in the first place.

lynn

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Yes, weak hand shooting and reloading is intended to simulate that your strong hand has been disabled and, as such, how can you possibly use it to reload or clear a malfunction or whatever? You just don't have the use of your strong hand any longer. That was the IPSC position previously but, since safety is our first concern and weak-hand-only reloads and malfunction clearances are an acquired skill which the vast majority of competitors do not practice, it was decided to no longer penalise reloading or malfunction clearances etc. if the competitor used his strong hand. The relevant rules in the IPSC 2004 Edition rulebook are:

1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.

-:however the operative word above is "shooting", and this is further clarified by:

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor will not be penalized for using the other hand to disengage an external safety, to reload or to safely correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued 1 procedural penalty per shot fired while:

.... 10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

.... 10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots;

.... 10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots.

I'll let somebody else speak for the USPSA but I understand (but obvioucly cannot guarantee) that the above rules will apply to the USPSA when their version of the 2004 is published.

Hope this helps.

[kimel]

I am NOT trying to be a DRL on this but if the rules say "hand" and a competitor braces with the opposite side forearm (not using the hand, just the forearm) is this a procedural? Envision the forearms crossed with the gun side forearm on top of the off side forearm.

It would seem to me that hand implies that portion of the appendage distal to the wrist and thus, using the forearm without using the hand would be allowable and an advantage could be gained while doing so.

Sitting here at my desk using my forearm to brace the opposite side it would appear that the advantage gained here is significant.

If forearm is disallowed then what about upper arm? What about leaning the off side shoulder into a prop/barricade?

If the intent of the rules is that only the hand is disabled then the rules stand as stated and those chosing to brace with the opposite side forearm may go forth and use the advantage gained.

If, however, the intent is that the entire appendage is disabled then the rules need to be ammended to define it as such.

Inquiring minds need to know.

Next we can discuss strong leg, weak leg only. Egret position anyone?

[Detlef]

mcoliver,

good point! With the advent of the new rules, I have started to practice reloads keeping gun in weak hand and using the strong hand to grab and insert magazine. With a bit of practice, it is faster and easier than transfering the gun between hands. I think it clearly is the way to go on weak-hand-only stages with reloads necessary! Think about it, the strong hand is now doing the hard part, i.e. inserting the mag, it has to be better this way...

--Detlef

[Vince Pinto]

I am NOT trying to be a DRL on this but if the rules say "hand" and a competitor braces with the opposite side forearm (not using the hand, just the forearm) is this a procedural? Envision the forearms crossed with the gun side forearm on top of the off side forearm.

Kimel,

Yes, the rule says "hand", and that's what it means. However if you think there are sufficient weak-hand-only stages around where we have a whole bunch of people skirting the rule by using their forearm for stability, it's an easy fix to broaden the scope of the rule to say "weak arm up to the elbow (or shoulder)".

I'll add it to my notes.

[kimel]

Hi Vince,

This discussion may need to be split and moved to the rules forum.

I have never seen it done as I describe. However, just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. And now that it has been brought up.....

In my mind it all depends on what the spirit of the rule is about. If the spirit is just to eliminate the hand only then leave it be. If however, it is meant to imply that the other hand should be used unsupported then a change to tighten things up is probably for the better. This isn't just weak hand only. It applies equally to strong hand only stages.

In fact, a wording change to include the term "unsupported" would probably be a good way to fix it...if it needs fixing.

If we are to relate this to real life scenarios I would think it more likely that an arm would be put out of commision by anything from a shoulder hit to an arm hit to a hand hit. Given that people are more apt to aim at the center of mass a shoulder or arm hit seems far more likely than a hand hit. I don't have any real data to base that on but I suspect there are those here that do have that kind of data.

Not knowing what the original intent was wayyyyy back when I can only surmise that the intent was that the specified hand should be used unsupported. That the majority of us actually do shoot it this way would seem to imply that this is the universally accepted interpretation of the rule.

It is interesting that this hasn't to popped up somewhere before. It would be an interesting arbitration.

Cheers!

Kevin

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Kevin,

Don't get me wrong - you've spotted an oversight, but it's easily corrected as follows:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand or arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand or arm to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand or arm on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots.

Unfortunately I'm not a Moderator here so I can't split or move this topic to the Rules forum, but the above proposal has already been added to the (secret!) forum used by the IPSC Rules Committee to thrash out rules.

The intention is to replicate one arm (not just a hand) being disabled, and that's why your point is quite valid. Thanks for the "heads up".

BTW, one of our key objectives when writing rules is to try and make things so clear that we can reduce arbitrations. Judging by our efforts so far, we've done pretty good, as there were only 4 arbitrations at World Shoot XIII which had 800 competitors and 35 stages!

[mcoliver]

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand or arm on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots.

Unless the prop is mandated under the COF description to be "held by the other hand", right?

[Vince Pinto]

Unless the prop is mandated under the COF description to be "held by the other hand", right?

OK, it's Thursday, and I'm always a little slow on Thursdays, but how can a "single hand" stage require you to use both hands? Surely it's either freestyle or a SHO/WHO stage?

[Skywalker]

Guess McOliver was implicitly referring to a suitcase, sack or whatever else has to be held (according to the stage briefing) by the strong hand to force you to shoot with your weak hand...

[kdj]

Guess McOliver was implicitly referring to a suitcase, sack or whatever else has to be held (according to the stage briefing) by the strong hand to force you to shoot with your weak hand...

But isn't that really freestyle, and if you are strong enough to hold the suitcase up to the gun, then you can go for it? The expectation is that most people will be forced by the prop to shoot one handed but others may be more creative

[Vince Pinto]

Guess McOliver was implicitly referring to a suitcase, sack or whatever else has to be held (according to the stage briefing) by the strong hand to force you to shoot with your weak hand...

You can only verbally require a competitor to use SHO or WHO in a Standard Exercise or Classifier (see Rule 1.1.5.3), which is when Rules 10.2.8.N come into play for failure to comply. In a regular COF, you cannot require a competitor to carry a briefcase unless the start position involves handcuffs (and hopefully fishnet stockings).

In any case, that's an entirely different to simulating total incapacitation of one hand or arm. If you're merely "inconvenienced" by handcuffs, then there's no penalty for using the other hand.

[Skywalker]

kdj,

I can understand your point, but let me expand a bit on this.

Let's take the suitcase example: I have tried several times to play creative, the way you suggest, but I've invariably ended up with worse time and points.

This (for me) was mainly due to the fact that, depending on the suitcase weight, trying to grip the gun with support hand holding the prop changed dramatically the way my gun tracked during recoil.

I was no longer consistent and noticeably slower, trying to manage the gun and the suitcase at the same time; whenever I got the opportunity to make a comparing run, I invariably ended up with better runs shooting one-handed than two-handed holding the prop.

Maybe it's just because I'm a not-so-good shooter (low-A class).