Ion Bond review.

[Nightrod]

wasn't it DLC doulble the price of chrome, and waiting period take too long? Just asking?

[Loves2Shoot]

wasn't it DLC doulble the price of chrome, and waiting period take too long? Just asking?

Waiting times (especially in the winter months) have been very long, but they added a new facility early this year, so they have dropped very recently. The cost is about 25% more than Metaloy HC.

[Nightrod]

wasn't it DLC doulble the price of chrome, and waiting period take too long? Just asking?

Waiting times (especially in the winter months) have been very long, but they added a new facility early this year, so they have dropped very recently. The cost is about 25% more than Metaloy HC.

would you mind to PM or post their site? thanks

[Loves2Shoot]

Check out my signature line...

IonBond page

[wgj3]

Any more follow-up on Finish preferences? I know this is an old thread. I have an IonBond-ed Fusion 1911 that I bought very gently used, and the finish still looks great. It seems to actually wear my holster, so I get marks on the slide, but it looks like the IB is "fillng" with Kydex as opposed to wearing off against the holster.

I also have an M&P9c, with what was said to be a "DLC" finish (bought used, post-refinish) that appears to have corrosion/rust spots showing through. I'm not pleased at all and somewhat confused in that I thought all the M&P slides were stainless.

I also have a couple firearms that I've had Cerakoted and they turned out looking great. However, the finish is not holding up particularly well. It wears off incredibly fast on slide rails and the like.

So, what is the awesome way to go regarding pistol/firearm finishes these days? I'm preparing to have my first pistol built to my specs and want to decide the finish so that I know if I need to accumulate parts constructed of certain materials...

Thanks!

[Rob Tompkins]

I've had guns that were nickle plated, hard chrome, blued, raw stainless and Melonited. I've not had anything with the DLC or Cerakote finishes.

Personal experience is if you want a black color Melonite is most durable. It will burnish and high spots will get shinny but the metal is still protected. It does harden the metal surface so its not the best for small thin parts that get a lot of stress (I've had the hammer spur on an EGW Lightened Hammer shear off and a 1911 link shear).

ADD: As far as I know M&P slides are Melonited stainless.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Rob Tompkins

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Hard chrome will last the longest. Then some other plating processes and then the paints. Ceracoating is just painting process and is porous so it will rust if not kept oiled. Ion Bond is softer than hard chrome, I have seen when the two are used together the Ion Bond wears through and the hard chrome still looks new. I am talking about competition guns that are shot a lot. Thanks, Eric

[Adam B]

Eric, I agree you on all points except the cerakote, if applied correctly it will not rust nor does it need to be oiled. I have several firearms cerakoted and none have any rust on them.

[Loves2Shoot]

Eric, Hardchrome is softer, just a lot thicker.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: If I still owned the Ceracoated gun I could show you the rust and wear marks on it. It was done by a factory trained shop. If two surfaces rub against each other with oil as a lube and one wears through and the other does not. That tells me the one must be tougher than the other. Hardchrome was still there and Ion Bond was all gone on the rails. The rest of the slide that was Ion Bond treated looked great. The same was true on another pistol where the frame wore through. With a hard chromed pistol the wear surfaces look great even after 30,000 rounds that I have seen. Not trying to start anything but just stating what I have seen. Thanks, Eric

[Adam B]

Eric, I see what you are saying now, I thought you were referring to the overall finish not the worn areas. You are absolutely correct, once the cerakote wears the firearm will rust. I have a pistol that has been melonited and there have not been any wear issues with it, it has been almost identical to hard chrome.

[wgj3]

So, I see a vote for Melonite from Rob. Other opinions? Anybody with insight on TiAlN(?) or others?

[Rob Tompkins]

So, I see a vote for Melonite from Rob. Other opinions? Anybody with insight on TiAlN(?) or others?

To be clear, Melonite is a case hardening process that leaves a black coating - that back coating can wear down but the case hardening is what protects the metal.

http://www.burlingtoneng.com/melonite.html

[MB DOC]

I recently had a 2011 in the shop for a new ejector that I built 3 years ago that I sent to Ionbond. It had over 100K rounds through it and only had minimal wear on the very front of the slide rails and worn through on slide stop at barrel contact points. I have Ionbond do 75% of my builds and have always been pleased. I have recently started using H&M Black Nitride (because of quicker turn around) and I like it. The black coloring doesn't wear well on the rail surfaces (as Rob said about Melonite) but the nitride treatment is not worn away. I haven't had any complaints so far from customers. Greg

[sn0wflake]

Hard chrome is about 68hrc hardness and can me made thick. The ionbond method/process sounds more like its a cosmetic finish and not a really durable one, hey its 5 microns thick. Plasma nitriding can be made 0,3mm thick. I work with plasma nitrided wear parts. Sometimes we have to send these out for machining, they have to use diamond cutters for this, precision ground ones.

I'd say if you want a durable no nonsense finish you have to resort to the old tried and true ones like carburizing/straight nitriding/nitrocarburizing/carbonitriding. The rest is just cosmetic fluff imo. All the durable treatments are high temp like 550deg C, so make sure they parts you are treating are tempered at around 500C or so. Because they will be once the treatment is done! whith the corresponding hardness/strength that that tempering temp will give you.

Look at glock, they use a nitrocarburizing process of some sort and it lasts a long time. But what they do is that they select the steel quality before this is all done, a steel quality that benefits from this, its like its all a package, the nitriding is not an afterthougth its was there from the start.

But from what I have seen and can read out (reading between the lines) most gun parts employ a high temp tempering (500C+), like 4140 at 32hrc. this is quite soft and weak if you ask me, maybe go up to a a 0,5C% steel and temper that to 40hrc instead. I mean the base metal that the coating adheres to has to be sufficiently hard so it wont deform when dinged. Because when the base metal deforms a hard coating will chip. Less so with straight nitriding coating though. It goes so deep.

Paint for example is plastic. ceracoat is just a plastic with some ceramics in it. and the thinner you put on paint the better, since when you ding and deform the base metal the paint just follows the ding without chipping. the thicker it is the longer it takes to wear it down but the easier it chips.

Nitridied parts never ever rust if done right. I have been keeping some nitrided (plasma) stuff outside for over a year in the rain and it just doesn't rust, its diffusion proof. Its more rust resistant that stainless steel and hard chrome. 416 ss that is common in guns is not that stainless to begin with, no hardenable stainless is really really stainless. Except maybe 17-4ph but thats an aging quality. You get the hardness and strength from "aging" it. that is you insert it in a oven at an elevated temp for a long time, until the alloying elements starts to precipitate out and get stuck between the crystals in the matrix preventing them from moving, thus making it harder.

Anyone tried just regular nitriding in a kiln at 550C with some ammonia gas (or whatever they use now) in there to a depth of 0,1mm or so? I think that will beat pretty much all these exotic micron deep coating for wear and durablility by a factor of like 20-30 or so. Would be cool to see some data though. Its not very pretty though.

Personally I wouldn't send out any small parts at all for any kind of treatment unless I knew it was tempered at above 500deg C, and all small parts like sears and such should be hard, like 50hrc plus. So its highly unlikely they used a 500C plus temper on those, since they would be rubber soft then, unless they make them out of HSS or stainless knife steels (and those materials are not very well suited for that job).

These above are "secondary hardening", that is: above a certain temperature when the "matrix" of the steel goes soft, (it gets softer the higher you temper it, all steel does) carbide formation will begin, usually at approx 500deg C (the carbide forming elements in the steel robs the matrix for carbon, and makes complex multimetal carbides with these, MMCs) and then the carbides that are very hard will make the overall measurements indicate a harder/stronger material, but still you have specks of hard carbides in a soft and weak matrix. Thats how it works pretty much. I sometimes read books. And this knowledge has been known for at least 60-70 years.

Good luck.

[Loves2Shoot]

Hard chrome is about 68hrc hardness and can me made thick. The ionbond method/process sounds more like its a cosmetic finish and not a really durable one, hey its 5 microns thick. Plasma nitriding can be made 0,3mm thick. I work with plasma nitrided wear parts. Sometimes we have to send these out for machining, they have to use diamond cutters for this, precision ground ones.

I'd say if you want a durable no nonsense finish you have to resort to the old tried and true ones like carburizing/straight nitriding/nitrocarburizing/carbonitriding. The rest is just cosmetic fluff imo. All the durable treatments are high temp like 550deg C, so make sure they parts you are treating are tempered at around 500C or so. Because they will be once the treatment is done! whith the corresponding hardness/strength that that tempering temp will give you.

Look at glock, they use a nitrocarburizing process of some sort and it lasts a long time. But what they do is that they select the steel quality before this is all done, a steel quality that benefits from this, its like its all a package, the nitriding is not an afterthougth its was there from the start.

But from what I have seen and can read out (reading between the lines) most gun parts employ a high temp tempering (500C+), like 4140 at 32hrc. this is quite soft and weak if you ask me, maybe go up to a a 0,5C% steel and temper that to 40hrc instead. I mean the base metal that the coating adheres to has to be sufficiently hard so it wont deform when dinged. Because when the base metal deforms a hard coating will chip. Less so with straight nitriding coating though. It goes so deep.

Paint for example is plastic. ceracoat is just a plastic with some ceramics in it. and the thinner you put on paint the better, since when you ding and deform the base metal the paint just follows the ding without chipping. the thicker it is the longer it takes to wear it down but the easier it chips.

Nitridied parts never ever rust if done right. I have been keeping some nitrided (plasma) stuff outside for over a year in the rain and it just doesn't rust, its diffusion proof. Its more rust resistant that stainless steel and hard chrome. 416 ss that is common in guns is not that stainless to begin with, no hardenable stainless is really really stainless. Except maybe 17-4ph but thats an aging quality. You get the hardness and strength from "aging" it. that is you insert it in a oven at an elevated temp for a long time, until the alloying elements starts to precipitate out and get stuck between the crystals in the matrix preventing them from moving, thus making it harder.

Anyone tried just regular nitriding in a kiln at 550C with some ammonia gas (or whatever they use now) in there to a depth of 0,1mm or so? I think that will beat pretty much all these exotic micron deep coating for wear and durablility by a factor of like 20-30 or so. Would be cool to see some data though. Its not very pretty though.

Personally I wouldn't send out any small parts at all for any kind of treatment unless I knew it was tempered at above 500deg C, and all small parts like sears and such should be hard, like 50hrc plus. So its highly unlikely they used a 500C plus temper on those, since they would be rubber soft then, unless they make them out of HSS or stainless knife steels (and those materials are not very well suited for that job).

These above are "secondary hardening", that is: above a certain temperature when the "matrix" of the steel goes soft, (it gets softer the higher you temper it, all steel does) carbide formation will begin, usually at approx 500deg C (the carbide forming elements in the steel robs the matrix for carbon, and makes complex multimetal carbides with these, MMCs) and then the carbides that are very hard will make the overall measurements indicate a harder/stronger material, but still you have specks of hard carbides in a soft and weak matrix. Thats how it works pretty much. I sometimes read books. And this knowledge has been known for at least 60-70 years.

Good luck.

You do understand that this is PVD and is being by many of the gun manufacturers, cutting tool, and engine parts manufactures? It is applied at 300-350.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Loves2Shoot

[sn0wflake]

Hard chrome is about 68hrc hardness and can me made thick. The ionbond method/process sounds more like its a cosmetic finish and not a really durable one, hey its 5 microns thick. Plasma nitriding can be made 0,3mm thick. I work with plasma nitrided wear parts. Sometimes we have to send these out for machining, they have to use diamond cutters for this, precision ground ones.

I'd say if you want a durable no nonsense finish you have to resort to the old tried and true ones like carburizing/straight nitriding/nitrocarburizing/carbonitriding. The rest is just cosmetic fluff imo. All the durable treatments are high temp like 550deg C, so make sure they parts you are treating are tempered at around 500C or so. Because they will be once the treatment is done! whith the corresponding hardness/strength that that tempering temp will give you.

Look at glock, they use a nitrocarburizing process of some sort and it lasts a long time. But what they do is that they select the steel quality before this is all done, a steel quality that benefits from this, its like its all a package, the nitriding is not an afterthougth its was there from the start.

But from what I have seen and can read out (reading between the lines) most gun parts employ a high temp tempering (500C+), like 4140 at 32hrc. this is quite soft and weak if you ask me, maybe go up to a a 0,5C% steel and temper that to 40hrc instead. I mean the base metal that the coating adheres to has to be sufficiently hard so it wont deform when dinged. Because when the base metal deforms a hard coating will chip. Less so with straight nitriding coating though. It goes so deep.

Paint for example is plastic. ceracoat is just a plastic with some ceramics in it. and the thinner you put on paint the better, since when you ding and deform the base metal the paint just follows the ding without chipping. the thicker it is the longer it takes to wear it down but the easier it chips.

Nitridied parts never ever rust if done right. I have been keeping some nitrided (plasma) stuff outside for over a year in the rain and it just doesn't rust, its diffusion proof. Its more rust resistant that stainless steel and hard chrome. 416 ss that is common in guns is not that stainless to begin with, no hardenable stainless is really really stainless. Except maybe 17-4ph but thats an aging quality. You get the hardness and strength from "aging" it. that is you insert it in a oven at an elevated temp for a long time, until the alloying elements starts to precipitate out and get stuck between the crystals in the matrix preventing them from moving, thus making it harder.

Anyone tried just regular nitriding in a kiln at 550C with some ammonia gas (or whatever they use now) in there to a depth of 0,1mm or so? I think that will beat pretty much all these exotic micron deep coating for wear and durablility by a factor of like 20-30 or so. Would be cool to see some data though. Its not very pretty though.

Personally I wouldn't send out any small parts at all for any kind of treatment unless I knew it was tempered at above 500deg C, and all small parts like sears and such should be hard, like 50hrc plus. So its highly unlikely they used a 500C plus temper on those, since they would be rubber soft then, unless they make them out of HSS or stainless knife steels (and those materials are not very well suited for that job).

These above are "secondary hardening", that is: above a certain temperature when the "matrix" of the steel goes soft, (it gets softer the higher you temper it, all steel does) carbide formation will begin, usually at approx 500deg C (the carbide forming elements in the steel robs the matrix for carbon, and makes complex multimetal carbides with these, MMCs) and then the carbides that are very hard will make the overall measurements indicate a harder/stronger material, but still you have specks of hard carbides in a soft and weak matrix. Thats how it works pretty much. I sometimes read books. And this knowledge has been known for at least 60-70 years.

Good luck.

You do understand that this is PVD and is being by most of the gun manufacturers, cutting tool, and engine parts manufactures? It is applied at 300-350.

I know exactly what it is, and its a very thin coating compared to 0,3mm plasma nitride. would you agree? Lets face it, you can have untreated steel at like 30 hrc and if lubed well it will last 100k rounds. With nothing! this is not the problem.

I am an ex machinist, and have worked with everything Sandvik and Seco has to offer (I greatly prefer Seco for everything, Sandvik for turning only, they have better geometries), and most other stuff is crap, the expections being Seco and Sandvik inserts. And possibly Iscar from israel. We had salesmen having us try out whatever crapola they could find and nothing ever performed better than the variates we used for like 10 years. Not in money nor time, nor durability, and time is money.

Most of the gold titanium nitride on drill bits wear off in like 30 seconds, because its just a cheap cosmetical coating, but if you for example buy Dormer drill bits, its done right and it lasts for many many hours, since its done correctly. yeah go figure.

5 micron coating? are you kidding me? on a butter soft matrix. What is the expectations here really? Cant be very high.

He said he dinged it on a soft screw and the coating came off. Good luck trying that with like 0,1mm or maybe 0,3mm plasma nitride, you will going through at least 10 kilos of screws before you see even a scratch in that nitride layer.

I dont care if ALL gun manufacturers use PVD whatever coatings, if its a joke its still a joke in my book (I know for a fact that there is really really good treatments, I have first hand experience, my own eyes (and having wrenched machines that use thick nitridedes for many many years) I'm guessing you would wear through like 200 holsters before you wear through a 0.1 or 0,2 mm correctly nitrided coating on a gun (like shown in this very thread) but thats just me.

Hey I'm no gun doctor or anything but I know pretty much how it works with metals.

Edited May 20, 2016 by sn0wflake

[darkvibe]

I have a DLC coated barrel and there is zero wear on the lugs after a few thousand rounds. Seems pretty durable to me.

[Solvability]

You guys might like the melonite finish - it is a surface hardening and reduces friction a bit as well as protecting against corrosion - works on Stainless or Chrome Steel - I like it and prefer it to other coatings.

Well worn Model 10

Good condition 629 - Stainless

Colt with too much oil

Edited May 20, 2016 by Solvability

[Loves2Shoot]

Snowflake, good to know you hate PVD. How many guns have you built and used it on? I guess you should try consulting for all the high end shops who are apparently stupid on the subject. Nitride isn't appropriate for most of the high end guns we coat. We will no longer be using Ionbond for PVD (huge price hike) but are looking at a couple other vendors. PS. we know it isn't the best for soft materials, but that isn't what we coat for the most part.

[cooper74]

Really appreciate all the info and review!

[coltlover]

I got a chuckle out of this video. I like Cerakote, don't get me wrong. Have used it more than any other finish for projects. This video should have included the "You're mileage may vary" disclaimer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ksj-XJzVQik#t=37