Stage Design

[LouSig]

I’ve been thinking about designing a stage where upon the start signal the shooter chooses a card which shows a letter, either A, B or C.  When engaging the targets the shooter cannot shoot the targets displaying the letter the shooter chooses.   There will be 10 targets marked A, 10 marked B, 10 marked C.   Any shots on the targets displaying the chosen letter will incur 1 procedural per shot.  The remaining targets will be scored best two shots.  This will be one of my first stages that I’ve tried designing that is somewhat different.

START POSITION: Standing in box A facing down range with hands naturally at sides.

STAGE PROCEDURE

Upon Start signal the shooter will flip one card on the table; the card will show a number (1, 2, or 3).  The user will engage all targets, except targets showing the number shown on the user’s card.   Any shots on a target showing the number chosen by the shooter will incur one procedural per shot.

SCORING:Comstock, 20  rounds, 100 points

TARGETS:10 IPSC

SCORED HITS:2 Best per IPSC

START-STOP:Audible - Last shot

PENALTIES:Procedural. -10

No-shoot hit. -10

Miss. -10

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Joe

[LouSig]

I’ve been thinking about designing a stage where upon the start signal the shooter chooses a card which shows a letter, either A, B or C.  When engaging the targets the shooter cannot shoot the targets displaying the letter the shooter chooses.   There will be 10 targets marked A, 10 marked B, 10 marked C.   Any shots on the targets displaying the chosen letter will incur 1 procedural per shot.  The remaining targets will be scored best two shots.  This will be one of my first stages that I’ve tried designing that is somewhat different.

START POSITION: Standing in box A facing down range with hands naturally at sides.

STAGE PROCEDURE

Upon Start signal the shooter will flip one card on the table; the card will show a number (1, 2, or 3).  The user will engage all targets, except targets showing the number shown on the user’s card.   Any shots on a target showing the number chosen by the shooter will incur one procedural per shot.

SCORING:Comstock, 20  rounds, 100 points

TARGETS:10 IPSC

SCORED HITS:2 Best per IPSC

START-STOP:Audible - Last shot

PENALTIES:Procedural. -10

No-shoot hit. -10

Miss. -10

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Joe

[lynn jones]

hey lousig,

i have shot something similar to what you have decribed.  2000, 2001, 2002 alabama sectional championships. 1) draw from a deck of cards, black card shoot black target, red card etc.  2) draw red card, don't shoot red targets, etc.

these type courses really mess with your mind, but their fun to shoot.

lynn jones

[lynn jones]

hey lousig,

i have shot something similar to what you have decribed.  2000, 2001, 2002 alabama sectional championships. 1) draw from a deck of cards, black card shoot black target, red card etc.  2) draw red card, don't shoot red targets, etc.

these type courses really mess with your mind, but their fun to shoot.

lynn jones

[ErikW]

That's been done a few times. Some people like it, some don't.

You have to write it so they can't choose a second or third card, which is what BSeevers and I would do. Flip, flip, flip, I'm done, they're all no-shoots, there's nothing to engage.

Don't make the description any more verbose than it has to be: "Choose a card. No-shoots are indicated by the first chosen card; engage all other targets."

Looks like you'll have high ratio of no shoots to targets. Of course you realize people will screw up and engage a no shoot or three and zero the stage. I'd probably make it more shooter-friendly by just specifying: "Targets to be scored are indicated by the chosen card." Then all they are doing is running the clock (and running out of ammo!) when they put holes in the non-targets.

[ErikW]

That's been done a few times. Some people like it, some don't.

You have to write it so they can't choose a second or third card, which is what BSeevers and I would do. Flip, flip, flip, I'm done, they're all no-shoots, there's nothing to engage.

Don't make the description any more verbose than it has to be: "Choose a card. No-shoots are indicated by the first chosen card; engage all other targets."

Looks like you'll have high ratio of no shoots to targets. Of course you realize people will screw up and engage a no shoot or three and zero the stage. I'd probably make it more shooter-friendly by just specifying: "Targets to be scored are indicated by the chosen card." Then all they are doing is running the clock (and running out of ammo!) when they put holes in the non-targets.

[jhgtyre]

You might also limit the targets affected by the cards to a single array within the stage.  That way it isn't a total loss if the shooters don't like it.

-ld

[jhgtyre]

You might also limit the targets affected by the cards to a single array within the stage.  That way it isn't a total loss if the shooters don't like it.

-ld

[Flexmoney]

#Moderation Mode

I'm moving this one to the "Stage Comments or Questions" section.  I think it fit better there.  Hope nobody minds.

Moved here

[Flexmoney]

#Moderation Mode

I'm moving this one to the "Stage Comments or Questions" section.  I think it fit better there.  Hope nobody minds.

Moved here

[mcoliver]

Recently shot a club match with a stage similar to this. Short course, half painted targets (so you shoot the targets in the colored portion you're supposed to shoot). You draw a colored ball then engage the opposite color (only two colors, yellow and brown.)  Really a simple stage but messed my mind big time.  Ended up zeroing it. DANG!  But it was fun and I learned a lot about my shooting with that stage.

[Ron Ankeny]

Like Erik said, some people like them some people don't. Personlly, I hate the "pick your number or color stages" with an unrivaled passion.

Erik also pointed out that there will be shooters who zero the stage so be prepared to take some heat from the folks who can't count. Also, have your rulebook handy so you can explain how you can magically change the course so it is not uniform from shooter to shooter and also be prepared to answer questions about how legitimate brown colored IPSC targets can magically mutate into a no-shoot.

[LouSig]

Ron,

Are there rules in the rule book that deal with this?  I searched the USPSA rule book but couln't find any information about stages designs such as this anywhere in the book.    

Everyone,

Thanks for all the input about a stage of this type.  I know I'll take some heat but hopefully it'll make the stage a little more fun then just shooting up targets.

Thanks

Joe

(Edited by LouSig at 7:41 pm on Dec. 26, 2002)

[Ron Ankeny]

LouSig:

That's my point, if someone really gets to bitching, you will probably have to throw the stage out assuming you are putting on a sanctioned match. It's no big deal at the club level unless someone throws a fit. Good luck and have fun.

[Flexmoney]

Joe,

I have been hesitant to post this.  I hope you don't take it in the wrong way.  You did ask for any thoughts, so I'll chime in.  

First off, I applaud your effort to design a stage that is novel, not boring...that should be the final test of a great stage design.  But, it shouldn't be the primary goal.

As Ron stated, the course should be the same for each shooter.  If a shooter can shoot one "set" of targets with a 9 hit factor, and the same shooter can shoot the other "set" of targets with a 7.8 hit factor...then the stage won't be the same for everyone.  Be sure to address that.

Beyond that, the primary goal of stage design should be to provide a good shooting problem for the competitors to solve.  Look to balance speed and accuracy (and power).  Look to give options to the shooters.  Try to allow for variety in the manner the stage can be shot.  Don't make the upper level shooters wait on props and such.  Be mindful that your courses will be shot by Open gun shooters with lots of ammo in one mag...and Production shooters that have to reload from mags behind their hips...and shoot minor.

I guess what I am getting at is to not get caught up in any one aspect of stage design (like making it "cool").  There are many aspects to a good stage.  Try to be mindful of them all.

I'm sure you will do fine, especially with all the advise of the good folks here.  Good luck.

[BSeevers]

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Quote: from Erik Warren on 3:20 pm on Dec. 24, 2002

.

You have to write it so they can't choose a second or third card, which is what BSeevers and I would do. Flip, flip, flip, I'm done, they're all no-shoots, there's nothing to engage.

---

Erik

I think you know me better than I do

I have set this stage up many times. One of the meanest variations I did was to have "red cards"as no shoots on one bank and later in the stage they were shoots. Its kind of fun watching people come back into concious states. Another variation I did was using white targets as shoots, one time I even did a color match with white targets and colored heads and then you picked cards that said RED in blue ink! Later in the stage you picked another set of cards. Yea I know some of this would not pass the range lawyers test but it was fun at club matches.

I would always set this one up as a "mirror" stage so everybody gets a equal shot at HF and amount of gun movement, etc. I agree with everything Kyle said. Keep being creative within "proper" stage guidelines. The flip side is I hate a match that I can make the call who designed it because of how it is set up. Some might call this "stale" I don't complain because the MD is working very hard for free.

You should see some of the things I can come up with.

[LouSig]

Thanks again for your input.  I was trying to setup a stage that required the shooter to think on their feet.   It seems as the stages gets more complex it becomes less practical shooting and more like dancing,     Take three steps shoot the target at 9 o’clock,  take four steps and shoot the target at 12 o’clock then engage the two targets behind the wall.    While fun it doesn’t seem at time to be very practical or to make the competitors think while about what they are shooting at.   All of this might just be a reflection of the stages that I’ve seen in local matches as I’ve only been shooing in USPSA for about 1 year.  I also wanted to make sure that I didn’t break the rules and to keep it fair, challenging, and interesting at the same time.  I'll post a link to the stage when I've think I've got it right.

Thanks again for your input

Joe Kipp

(Edited by LouSig at 7:47 am on Dec. 28, 2002)

[Ron Ankeny]

Uncle Bill:

I agree that courses can get stale and I too enjoy a little break once in a while unless it borders on the ridiculous.

How do you guys handle range lawyers like me? It seems that if we are shooting a sanctioned match complete with classifier for credit, then we should at least attempt to follow the rulebook. Where problems arise is when an RO tries to assess a penalty when the course is illegal from the start. I think you know where I am headed. How do you justify implementing and enforcing rules inconsistently? Do you shoot the novelty (lack of a better word) matches as a side match or do you just tell the legalistic thinkers to pound sand?

LouSig:

I know what you mean about "thinking" and that's why I shoot IDPA. However, in IPSC there is a fine line between thinking and confusing. Your good intent to add diversity and require thinking can easily be misunderstood and taken as an effort to compund problems and confuse shooters. If the better shooters feel like you are trying to design a course to confuse them in order to slow them down and level the field, they will probably have something to say.

In our club, we try to break things up by using a diversity of props, targets, hard cover, distances, heights, etc. It is very difficult and time consuming to design a  great stage. My favorite stages are those with plates, both size of poppers, a mover, soft cover, hard cover, etc. all shot on the move or as they appear while maintaining the notion of single stack friendly. If you come up with a stage like that the guys at your club will call you Stagemeister, lol.

(Edited by Ron Ankeny at 11:37 am on Dec. 28, 2002)

[JFD]

I believe the best thing is to have the card represent the "shoot' targets, not the "no-shoots".

I've shot one stage where we reached into a can of poker chips and pulled our "shoot" color.  About halfway through the stage I had sudden doubts as to whether I had really pulled a red chip or not.  Not a bad stage, but it did have an IDPA "feel" to it and I wouldn't want to shoot this kind of thing too often.

[BSeevers]

---

Quote: from Ron Ankeny on 1:28 pm on Dec. 28, 2002

Uncle Bill:

How do you guys handle range lawyers like me? It seems that if we are shooting a sanctioned match complete with classifier for credit, then we should at least attempt to follow the rulebook. Where problems arise is when an RO tries to assess a penalty when the course is illegal from the start. I think you know where I am headed. How do you justify implementing and enforcing rules inconsistently? Do you shoot the novelty (lack of a better word) matches as a side match or do you just tell the legalistic thinkers to pound sand?

(Edited by Ron Ankeny at 11:37 am on Dec. 28, 2002)

---

Ron

I understand your position and I know its right. That said, here's what I have been doing the last few years.

If it effects the outcome of the match I say something. If its for example something like non standard targets, I say nothing. Bowling pins are fine if everybody has to shoot the same ones if that makes sense.

I have found if you pick things too much at a club match pretty soon there is no club match because of burnout. Now if someone is doing something too wild then they need to be corrected. I used to have your stance. In fact I still do at any "big" match but have become kinder and gentler at the locals Things can be improved with time, training and experience, but we have had 2 or 3 clubs get shut down, for other reasons also, but burnout was one of them, in many cases.

I shot a match last year that had the classifier set up 2 yards too long. I pointed it out and they did nothing. I asked the MD to NOT send in my classifier as I want to move up. Well he did and put me down in the match results at a higher class than I am. That's an example of how not to run a club match. I know this has nothing to do with this topic, but its kinda related.

I know I speak with forked tongue but its out of necessity. In couple years I might not have this stance.

Hopefully.

[titandriver]

  Bill --- where do you draw the line at local matches if you allow non-standard targets in a USPSA approved match? What if they only want to allow a maximum of 10 rounds loaded in a magazine? Or allowing less than .40 caliber guns to be scored as major in Limited "cuz ol' JerryJoeBob is D class and ain't no threat to win anyhow". How about giving procedural penalties if you don't shoot it like the stage designer envisioned? I've witnessed all of the above (and more) since I've been shooting IPSC.

 If discussion with the match director does no good I go to the section coordinator.Failing there I go to the Area director. I think if your club advertises as holding USPSA approved matches, it should run the USPSA matches by the rulebook. Once you allow individual clubs to decide which of the rules they will enforce then you are no longer running a USPSA approved match, rather a club match loosely following USPSA rules. If it's advertised as such then I have no problems. But, if it's a USPSA match and I fly accross the country expecting to shoot a USPSA match and find out it's just a "good ol' boys" match, damn right I'll be pissed!!

 The way we handle it in Idaho is to hold a USPSA match one weekend and a club "fun match" two weekends later where it's no holds barred and nothing is sacred except for safety. That way the USPSA guys are happy as are the "carnival" shooters who eschew the circumscription of rulebooks.

 Admittedly, the little infractions of the rules are easier to stop before it becomes entrenched, however, a visit by the SC, or a note from the AD, explaining that part of the agreement when they chose to affiliate with USPSA/IPSC was to "host matches under the published USPSA/IPSC rules and guidlines". Many times, the match directors haven't any idea what the USPSA club program manual says and only need it brought to their attention to correct any problems.

[BSeevers]

Rich

I guess I will start by saying I am NOT running these matches. I have attended and seen both sides of complaining and am just trying to help us grow. Now when I run a match I follow the rules,period, and if I don't, I want to know.

As I said if the rule bending effects the outcome of the match, I would say something. We can't change L10 round count, PF or things like that because they are cheating the other compeditors and affecting the outcome of the match.

 Another example of my "line" is lets say a club only has 6 inch round plates. Should the course be tossed? By the rules it should. I say shoot it or remove the illegal plates if you can( not always an option) and next time they buy plates, get the correct ones.

I think you know that, as you, I have NO compromise for safety.

I guess what I mean is I think there is place to either draw the line or put out the big fires before the little ones. In my post you will see that my "goal" is to get everybody on board and follow the rules as everybody should. Have you had any clubs close in the last few years? This is not a rampant problem around here but it is something I have changed my attitude on after seeing the results.

Also it is very crucial when a new club starts up to help them get on track. In the "correct" rulebook world when I attend a "new" club match I should have had stages thrown out. Do you see how that could be counter-productive? Does the club need to follow the rules. You bet, but you can't always have 6 to 8 experienced, trained RO's and a MD in a short time. This club now runs matches like they have been doing them for years. You shot at it this year. This was the first full year for USPSA at Rayners. Impressed? I am.

Now if someone knows better then they should be corrected, if not, then they shouldn't run USPSA matches.

[Ron Ankeny]

Bill:

Actually, your position is about the same as mine. I mention the infractions but I dont' push things unless they are really outrageous. I pretty much agree wih what you are saying.

[titandriver]

  Bill --- good points all. Sadly, all the examples I used were right here in Area 1. The Ohio section match was as good a match as any that I've attended save the Nationals. I only wish the enthusiasm evidenced at Raynor's Range was as rampant in my corner of the IPSC world.

 That said, my belief is that a local USPSA approved club match in Idaho should be administered exactly the same as a local USPSA approved club match in Ohio. That is to say: by the current rulebook. The example I used of allowing only 10 rounds loaded in a magazine was applied to ALL divisions. Guessin' most anyone would be steamed if they drove four or five hours to a match only to find out they could only load ten rounds in their twenty nine round mag. Since everybody could only load ten, they felt that was fair. And the majority of the stages were thirty-plus rounds.

 I've not yet seen any of my states IPSC clubs close down, and I certainly don't want anyone to think a hardass approach is warranted when pointing out minor flaws in course design or target presentations. As an experienced shooter, and section coordinator, I feel we need to get to matches ahead of time to correct these blemishes before they become a "way of life" , and to aid in any way we can to get these clubs on the right path. I won't just complain, I'll jump in to help set up so that stages don't get tossed out. I'll point out that bowling pins aren't acceptable or legal targets and suggest target-legal alternatives that present the shooting challenge that they are attempting.

 Matches that run by the rules are an investment in the success of future matches. Those clubs that are run by an ever changing, ever flexible rule set are the ones that never grow or soon whither away.

[Flexmoney]

Cool.

Rich and I had a similar conversation at lunch during THE Ohio Section match.  I feel confident that if I were to travel to Idaho to shoot a big USPSA match...there would be a USPSA match there to greet me, not some local guru's "idea" of what the match ought to be.  (If you are running a USPSA match...have it follow the book.)

Bill also is on track...at least in our area.  Rayner's was a good exapmle.  I remember the first time Bill shot there.  There were no "regular" memebers that had any time in the saddle in USPSA shooting.  Nobody there had ever seen an "A-class" Open shooter.  Heck, I never even knew there were Master and Grand Master classes at the time.  Thinking back, the stage I watched Bill shoot was illegal.  It was from the box, a couple of paper, two plate racks, and another couple of paper target...I think there might have been some more steel in there somewhere too.  This was an USPSA match.  But, if Bill would have said it wasn't legal...he would have just received some funny looks.  

Another local match is well established.  Likely one of the best stage designers in the U.S. runs it.  But, he was out this whole year due to work obligations.  As the year progressed without him, the matches got a little more and more away from by-the-book USPSA matches.  The stages weren't bad...but, they could go south pretty easily.  I know that some shooters skipped the matches after seeing some of the stages (they are posted ahead of time).  

[edit] You guys post quick...I'd better get on the ball.