gose
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Posts posted by gose
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I have only shot one regional but I was not a fan of the two small stages. They felt like stages we shoot at our club match because they actually are. Much like I never liked shooting a classifier at an area USPSA match. They have reasons for wanting to get more shooters they the Classifiers so I understand why the Classifiers are there.Jesse, you're right. That's why sub-20 second stages have no place in a major match. In my opinion.
So we're coming up with a new scoring system because 3GN classifiers are used at 3GN regional matches?
You could just tell 3GN to use better stages, or shoot non-3GN matches. That might be an easier solution than coming up with a new scoring system
Actually "we" haven't come up with anything. You have merely come here to pile on the anti 3-gun nation bandwagon. If you were doing anything but I'd explain myself. Or you could have simply read the thread and you'll understand what the discussion is.
tl;dr.
I was just pointing out the fact that it seemed like one of the reasons for _your_ new scoring system was that the current scoring system didnt work very well for short 3GN classifiers and that if you're not happy with how that worked out, there are easier and less contentious ways of rectifying that.
My intent was more to pile on the anti new scoring system bandwagon than the anti 3GN one.
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Jesse, you're right. That's why sub-20 second stages have no place in a major match. In my opinion.
I have only shot one regional but I was not a fan of the two small stages. They felt like stages we shoot at our club match because they actually are. Much like I never liked shooting a classifier at an area USPSA match. They have reasons for wanting to get more shooters they the Classifiers so I understand why the Classifiers are there.
So we're coming up with a new scoring system because 3GN classifiers are used at 3GN regional matches?
You could just tell 3GN to use better stages, or shoot non-3GN matches. That might be an easier solution than coming up with a new scoring system
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Yep, as I stated earlier, L10 seems the most redundant div and could easily be dropped without a lot of fuss. My understanding was that it was created solely to address changes in the law about mag capacity .... As Rob said, you could also just combine L10 and SS into one division as well and let them all play together. I also like his comment that the open division has little to do with practical shooting anymore.
And combine Revolver with Super Senior.
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This past Friday I went to the range and did some testing with my own shotgun (accessorized competitive 3 gun shotgun)
Slugs at 50 & 100 yards on paper, open sights, with the low recoil slugs I've been using all year to get some actual data.
Results were disappointing -
From a bench with a precise point of aim using open sights, I'm shooting 3 inch groups at 50 yards. Sweet!
Then at 100 yards I'm shooting a 10-12 inch groups using the same gun, ammo, sights, etc. WTF.
My first thought was "wow I suck" even though I the shooting seemed perfect.
Then someone pointed out to me that rifled slugs through a choke swage down a bit so the farther they fly the less accurate they get.
I'll continue to test this as time goes on with other ammo's and chokes, but is anyone else getting similar results?
Really makes me re-think what level of accuracy I want in my slug shooting because 12 inches at 100 yards with open sights seems terrible.
Try some different chokes and slug brands. When I did my initial lengthy testing after getting my M2 I saw some pretty significant differences between brands. A little difference between chokes, but not nearly as much as between slug brands.
12" seems pretty bad. Mine does 3-4" from a sandbag @100 with the right slugs. Though, I also have folding 10/22 sights on, which makes it a little easier..
My MKA open guns dont shoot slugs as tight as the M2, but they're not too far behind and nowhere near 12"
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Spare SP01, check!
Spare Aimpoint, check!
Ready to rocknroll in Production Optics, check!
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. Again, kinda hard to get a guy to come run his carry gun with a slide mounted optic and have him compete against true open guns. He'd be better off in the over all standings using a Limited gun. I don't think the drubbing he'd receive weekend after weekend would be conducive to longevity..
Instead of 30% of the Open winner, the guy will now get 45% of the Production Optics winner. Either way, he's probably going to be one of the last ones in the division and he'll see a winner shooting either a $5k tricked out Open gun or a $3k tricked out Production Optics gun.
Sure, he'll do slightly better relatively speaking and the price difference between his and the winner's gun is going to be less, but those seem to be kinda small differences. I seriously doubt that those differences are really going to change what a shooter thinks about USPSA and if he will actually continuing competing.
I do see some point and merit with the division as the number of production-style guns with optics is increasing and it might get some decent participation from open and production, but I dont believe for a second that this will add any measurable number of new shooters.
Even airsoft or .22 would probably add more USPSA members than this division. We could always try all three, right? We'll keep any that get participation.
In the next iteration, we can try Open Minor, Revolver Optics and Limited Optics
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Round counts do not tell the story of a match, nor it's bias...not even close.
In the Noveske match I have 85 rifle, 107 pistol, 78 shotgun and 68 choice targets. A pistol wizard will likely shoot about 45 of those choice targets with pistol. But based on my skillset, I will likely shoot about 115 rifle, 115 pistol and 108 shotgun. Under your proposed scoring system, that is a total nightmare. ROs will have to be changing point values based on what target I shoot with which gun. Completely unworkable. Choice IS a test of skills and stage planning. So yes, that is a HUGE downside. Making everyone shoot all the stages the same way is not only boring, it subtracts options from stage designers and competitors alike.
This would be the absolute biggest negative of the system. I love when stage designers give you flexibility in what guns to use. Taking that away, or making it even harder would make this a definite non-starter for me.
For example, there was a stage at SMM3G a few years ago where you got to choose to shoot the stage with a rifle or pistol. With this point system, that would be almost impossible.
A full size paper with pistol is 3points no matter the distance, but with rifle you get 4 points if its beyond 20 yards?
7 points for a 10" steel flasher at 100 yards, 9 points for a skinny popper at 190 yards that you have to shoot with your rifle leaned 9 degrees?
This point system seems somewhat arbitrary, will only make it harder to build stages with options and offers very few, if any, benefits and some serious drawbacks over existing scoring methods.
kudos for trying, but no thanks
Also, how do you count targets partly covered with no shoots or hard cover?
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But no one would ever choose shotgun over rifle if given as choice unless you didn't need to go to the rifle at Ali on a particular stage on you had to gp out on your way to see the targets with the rifle.
I agree we think Pat, let's use the right tool for the right job.
It would largely depend on your division and stage design. There are still a few of us that shoot Open where the choice would be harder.
Being allowed to freely pick the right tool for the right job would be awesome though, as I'd probably choose rifle over pistol on pretty much all stages.
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I wish there were some standards on this stuff. How big is the sport of 3 Gun going to get before all the 20 year veteran shooters & match directors have a meeting of the minds?
With so many differing opinions there never will be a general standard, as there is an audience for non-standard stuff. For example, silly standards is exactly the reason I'm never going to attempt an IDPA DMG match.
As long as there are grumpy guys like me around that dont like standards and prefer matches to have their own flavors, there will always be non-standard matches around.
100y seems reasonable for slugs though.
In a shotgun only match 100 MAX!!! At full size paper or steel targets. (feel that is still too far)
In a 3 gun match...Damn Sam! I HAVE a carbine with me, let me use the right tool for the job!
Nothing stopping you from building stages where you can choose between shooting rifle or slugs on the 100y targets
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Haven't you ever wondered why the slide and frame and some cases the barrel now all carry the same serial number ?
My guess, because theyre all restricted parts that require a permit in most European countries. Probably easier to just stamp all guns than figuring out first which ones are going to countries that require it and which ones that arent. Its not like it's going to matter in the US if they do have a number.
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We have 6 divisions, and only one allows the use of an optic sight. That needs to change.
Fine by me. Introduce this new division and drop revolver and I'll be all for it. In with the new, out with the old!
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I don't know about others, but my point would be to be able to slap on an optic and remain competitive. Otherwise I'd just take my STI Steelmaster with it's 101 PF loads I use for open Steel Challenge division and shoot open USPSA ...
A Glock, or M&P might be more competitive in a production optics division than in Open, but is it really going to be competitive with a tuned $3000+ production legal Tanfo or Sphinx?
Probably not, and creating a division so that people can be just a little more competitive seems somewhat silly to me. "Lets create a new division so I can get from 60% to 70%."
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there was a cheap one on gunbroker the other day. had the 3 barrels too.
might be still there.Found one
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Major vs minor ... This is huge
Then get a CORE in .40 or put a dot on your Glock 35?
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Production optics won't be low cost. You will see the same purpose built production guns with expensive optics on them. A nice tuned CZ with an RMR milled into the slide will cost more than an Edge. Let's at least be honest about this point.
Or how about a tuned Stock 2/3 or Sphinx?
It would only be a matter of time until the guns used by the top shooters in this new division cost almost as much as a "real" open gun.
A guy with an OOB S&W core is going to be at a prety decent disadvantage against one of those tuned production optics racers, so what are we gaining by adding a new division?
He might be slightly less disadvantaged compared to a full blown open gun, but he'll still be disadvantaged.
is it really worth having a new division so that he can be slightly less disadvantaged than he would be in Open? I'm sure it wouldnt be long until people shooting Cores would start complaining about the $3k+ raceguns showing up in this new division.
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So its legal to watch the recording that your buddy made when he shot the stages the day before, or during the prematch, but not to record anything during the walk-through because its a sighting aid you can use to game the stage before its your turn to shoot?
Makes sense.
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Keep a pile with a "known" history/provenance for bigger matches.
Don't worry about the rest and use it for practice.
I use three buckets, once fired, twice fired and practice. Match brass comes out of the first two and brass I'm not sure about goes into the practice bucket.
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I'd say durability alone makes it better than a Swaro.
I dont think Ive seen any Z6is go down, have you? I broke a few Meoptas but I have yet to break a single Z6i, so at least they seem to be sturdier than the K-dots.
Just wondering whether a sturdier scope is really something that's needed for what we do, or something that just adds weight and cost?
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I'm just still butthurt about Amidon telling me chop shot artists like me can't shoot Production with the guns we have, because we need to spend four times as much on the exact same gun because it came out of the factory that way. Wasn't the Production division created for a safe haven from the arms race?
I guess it's not the money that bothers me so much (after all, I do have more money in CZ75 pattern pistols than most people have in their cars
) it's just the arbitrary nature of the rulings. For example: an SP01 Shadow is an SP01 minus the firing pin block plus about $200 in upgrades (sights, safeties, mag release), yet an SP01 costs under $600 new and the market price for a used SP01 Shadow is somewhere in the $1,300-$1,600 all because it came from the factory without a firing pin block instead of the user removing it.Production is an arms race, period end of story.
And in one way, Production is worse than Open and Limited. At least in those two divisions you can modify your gun to keep up with the latest features, in Production you need to buy a new gun with them on from the factory...
I think its a conspiracy between USPSA and gun manufacturers
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Havent seen any issues yet, but I run open minor.
Anyone who wnts to get rid of their Czechmate can give me a ping.. I could use another one...
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30, 45 or 60 - is the most common I see.. regardless of rifle/pistol/shotgun
20 yards seems to be about normal with Shotgun
10-15 for pistol
100-125 for rifle,, but I've seen them further at Iron man
Restrictions for shot.. I've seen max #6, which brought out Prairie Storms shells (in 2 3/4 or 4).. then that got relaxed since the PS was harder on the targets than 00 buck.. this year their rule is: "max shot size of 6 and a max speed of 1350FPS"
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=179
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/shotshell.aspx?id=191
The last one is only 1210 fps, but I'm guessing that 1 7/8 oz of lead will do well
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Benelli M2, 21" barrel with 10/22 flip-up sight. Zeroed at 75y w 7/8 1300 fps slugs
2" high at 50
8" low at 100
22" low at 125.
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I use aimpoints, mostly micros, on everything except handguns. Theyve seen quite a bit of use and abuse and no issues so far.
However, I do replace the batteries every two-three years as I always leave them on.
) it's just the arbitrary nature of the rulings. For example: an SP01 Shadow is an SP01 minus the firing pin block plus about $200 in upgrades (sights, safeties, mag release), yet an SP01 costs under $600 new and the market price for a used SP01 Shadow is somewhere in the $1,300-$1,600 all because it came from the factory without a firing pin block instead of the user removing it.
New 3-Gun Scoring System
in Multi-gun Rules / Stage Design / Match Administration
Posted
If youre going to make the short stages worth very little in relation to the long stages, why not just simply run straight time? Sure, thats not perfect either, but at least you know what you get. Somewhat arbitrarily assigning point values is going to be very imprecise and it's inevitable that it will screw up a shooters and a match here and there just because the assigned values got completely off when someone unexpectedly burned down a stage.
If you dont like short stages being worth as much as large stages - run straight time
If you think that short stages are as important as long stages - run time plus with points