Gary Stevens

Hey Flex, I know you have trouble reading upside down but considering what we have now, and the modification we are going to make, where do you find wording that allows you to C&L in Production Division? The modification only allows the first shot to be fired single action. It made no modification to any starting conditions, and the rule states "Single Action Pistols (have to include the word pistol or Vlad will correct me ) not allowed". Unless you want to debate the meaning of the word "is", how can you holster loaded, C&L with a rule that says Single Action Pistols not allowed? I await your insight, as long as I don't have to stand on my head to read it.

Well as I have often said when running a shooter who doesn't want to accept my advice as to the meaning of the walk through, "You shoot it your way, and I'll score it my way. Then those at a higher pay grade than me can work it out." As I have said, IMO when you holster a C&L pistol you have in fact holstered a single action pistol, regardless of it's other abilities, which is not allowed in Production. If you disagree, and feel strongly about your ability to wordsmith the rules, I suggest you pick the first major tournament after the new rules are published and in force, and give it a try. Who knows you might be right.

It did when created, and still is for a while. We felt that by allowing thel option of thumb cocking, after the start signal, was a reasonable choice. We want a place for DA type guns to play, but in the, oh God can I actually say it, "real" world an individual might just thumb cock his first shot for a tough or distant shot. You can still shoot it DA, but you have the option to cock if you wish.

Playing Devils Advocate again, taken in context of what you are saying, what do you think it means when it says "Single Action's not allowed" in the Production Division requirements?

No problem Jon. It is better we discuss it now than after the printing. As I have always said, constructive discussion is a good thing

It is much like the fuss over the competitors loading with 11 rounds in their magazine. They did not comply with the requirements of the Division. Production does not allow single action guns. With selective actions you have a choice single action or double action. If you want to shoot it in Open, Limited, or L-10 then the single action side would be appropriate. If you want to shoot in Production you can not use the single action side, you must use the double action side, at least until the start signal when the new rule book is printed. The posting by Vince was about a question of a shooter in Limited having a 170 magazine on his belt "during the course of fire". Vince's opinion, was that the competitor had not complied with the Division requirements and would be moved to Open. I agree with this. Limited is "limited" to 140 mm magazines, the simple possession of a 170 mm on your belt during the course of fire is a violation IMO. My opinion, subject to someone else overruling it, is if you are in Production Division and you holster a C&L handgun you are no longer fufliling the requirements of Production and are moved to an appropriate Division other than Production. Other views may vary. I have sent an e-mail to JA to make sure we have clear language about this in the new book. I thought this was pretty simple, but maybe not.

As to the XD, I can only speak for myself, but the deciding factor to me was the members who paid their hard earned money for a gun that was legal at that time. If we made a mistake in allowing the XD to begin with, the members who bought one should not have to pay for that mistake. One other area that was on my mind was "Is there a significant difference in that gun and others of similar design" I concluded, right or wrong, that there was not. What is a single action and what is a double action is not as clear today as it was 50 years ago. But the main issue was, I did not want our members to be hosed for a possible mistake they had nothing to do with. If you disagree, that is fine. I am comfortable with my decision.

My .0001 cent, it is a Division.

Also you can not get to the "first shot" until after the start signal and still remain in the match in most circumstances.

Tom surely you don't think we are speaking of only allowing 8.5 inch revolvers to shoot in Production Division do you? These are maximum barrel lengths. We felt if we set it that far out, that most people wouldn't say "But I want to shoot my XYZ pistol that has a 5 inch or 6 inch or 6.5 inch or 8 3/8 inch and you say it has to be 4 inch. So we thought we would give you the option to shoot your hand cannon if you can draw it out of a hip holster. As to the cocked and locked, no. As I posted previously, what you do after the buzzer is up to you. Prior to that though it is up to the RO and the equipment rules for the Division. I would think, based on a posting by Vince, that if you cock and lock and holster, you might find yourself in a division other than Production.

I understand your thought process, and it has merit. I personally wanted to call it the "Over 50 ,but still think they are 21, who can't see the darn distant targets" Division. The less verbose members of the BOD thought that was a bit wordy and picked "Tactical". My opinion, although I might be wrong, is that those non-shooting types who think "Tactical" is bad are probably doing so because of the evil black gun that most of us use and not because of the word itself. You can put a dress on a pig, and call it a ballroom dancer, but in the end it is still a pig. Trying to convince the "uninformed" that we are playing a game called "Optical Rifle", while we are blasting away with our 30-40 round AR 15, at a variety of targets will probably have the same effect as using the name "Tactical Rifle". The observer will probably either approve or disapprove based on their own pre-concieved ideas, regardless of what you call the division. As to the "Commando" element, if they want to play by our rules, observe our decorum as to dress, and pay their money as far as I am concerned they are welcome. We are not catering to anyone. What we are actually doing is providing a vehicle where those who are having eyesight problems, but don't want to compete in Open Division, still have a few years to play. We will see how it works out, things can always be changed down the road if there is a problem. Also congratulations on bringing an alternative to the table along with your concern. Constructive discussion is always a good thing.

Just as a matter of personal interest, what is wrong with the word "Tactical"? We created a Division that is very close to what is being used every day in Iraq and other places, why not the word "Tactical"?

I guess I should also have said the cocking of the hammer, if you wish, takes place after the start signal. In other words, after the buzzer you are on your own.

Bfore anyone starts reading too much into the new Production Division rules, let me clarify a couple of things. All the equipment rules remained as they were, no "race rigs". The pistol must still be a double action pistol on the first shot, however we are allowing you to cock the hammer on the first shot if you wish. If you were shooting a standards at maybe fifty yards and you did not wish to take the first shot double action, you may now thumb cock the hammer for the first shot. Also the eight shot revolvers are now welcome in Production. The more generous forward point of the hip bone position for holsters and allied equipment, will also allow a couple of speed loaders to be carried in front of the holster. if the holster is pushed back to about where it is carried now.The XD remains legal if it is on the approved list, and I believe it will be.

Hi Bill, it could mean that if you will get me a club started in West Virginia and become my Section Coordinator Well I can't resist a nice fellow like you, so I'll tell the truth. Yes it means that. The MD and I have worked on a principle that we believe will make revolver shooters reasonably happy if they do their part on their shooting ability. It will also benefit L-10 and Production shooters as well. I hope it works out. I would like to hear revolver shooters happy for a change

Jim if you will read the current rule US10.3.2 it explains the difference between a discharge and a detonation.

The 2004 Area 5 Tournament will be held September 3-5, 2004 in Sellersburg, Indiana. This is about 15 minutes North of Louisville, Kentucky on I-65. This is a great opportunity to warm up for the Nationals two weeks later. It will be 10 stages, approximately 200+ rounds, and shot in one day. You can fly into the Louisville Airport, and when you are not shooting you can try your luck on the casino riverboat a few miles from the range. Details are being developed and posted to the USPSA match page and the Area 5 web page. An entry form is posted there for you to download. This is an Point Series Tournament and Level III IPSC Sanctioning is being applied for. I am working with the MD to insure this is a gun friendly tournament regardless of what gun you are shooting. More information, along with stages will be posted as they are developed. Gary

Hi Phil, Glad to see (hear) you. There are expenses associated with running a Nationals that are not normally associated with a local match. With very rare exceptions all the Area matches break even or make a small profit for the club. Part of this is because they use a lot of their local RO types for staff. The Nationals has cost such as range rentals, which may not be a local problem, and the big item is staff cost. While mistakes are made with the best of intentions, we have always tried to put a professional, experienced staff on the range to assist you in your shooting. Our goal is to have a perfect officiated match and let the best shooters win without the staff wrongly getting involved. Just as shooters, the staff doesn't always shoot all "A's", but we keep trying. The trend today is shooters want more stages, this takes more staff to run them. Each additonal stage raises the cost of the Nationals. It cost less to put on a 8-10 stage Area match than a 20-24 stage Nationals. The prize table is actually one of the lesser cost to the Nationals, although still significant. There are fixed cost associated with this venture, and the only way they can be off set is with increased attendence. That has not been the case for several years. Different venues and formats have been tried and we have lost significant money every year for the several years. It has nothing to do with last years Nationals or any particular Nationals, it is a continuing pattern. We could continue the same pattern and at some point cease to exist in any meaningful form, or attempt to provide a quality match and still stay solvent. To Mike's credit he is attempting to make the best of a bad situation. The financial bleeding has to stop or we all may be shooting PPC again. The next time we run into each other on the range, I'll buy the cold drinks and maybe we can find some new solutions to our mutual problems. Take care, Gary

Sorry Eric I guess I am off center tonight, but you lost me. WTF what?

To find out if there are workable formats where shooters attend and the organization doesn't lose many thousands of dollars, one has to experiment with different concepts. Mike has tried several different formats to varying degrees of success or failure. This is one of the last formats to experiment with. There does not appear to be any magic bullet for this issue. Continuing to run multiple nationals in different venues or back to back allow shooters to take a few days off and shoot a nationals. This is a good thing. It also has proven to be very expensive and has placed a financial strain on the organization that must be addressed. Running a combined nationals over several days will prohibit some individuals from attending and that is a bad thing, but it might break even on the cost side. Most people get a week or two vacation, and with a almost a year notice should be workable. You don't have to stay past Friday and attend the shoot off, and you can have a friend pick up your prize for you. I used to use two weeks vacation time to set up the nationals one week and then work it the next week. It can be done.

I can see the grassy knoll from here.

Just to clarify the point one more time, the President has sole authority for the type, venue, and dates of the Nationals. The question of "Doesn't the BOD know....." when related to the Nationals is not a valid question. That does not mean we did not voice our opinions, but the decision is not ours. Gary

My suggestion would be to call Cylinder and Slide shop, EGW, or Jim Garthwaite as they, and probably others, have extensive experience with Brownings. If it can be done, you can bet the bottom dollar that one of these three can do it.

As Jeff Cooper was known to say "A unique solution to a non-existant problem".

I should add, I was speaking of Production Division, not any other thing such as regular shooting or carry.