hobbit99

I am going to add to this thread even though my eyes are not really good enough to test this gun to its full potential. On first trip to the range after disassembly, cleaning, lubrication, and reassembly. I started a slow break-in at 10 yards just to see what the gun felt like. I liked it...After shooting two mags and doing some slow transitions, I moved back to 15 yards and set a timer for 10 seconds. With two mags loaded with 10 rounds each, I fired two strings of 10 shots each within 10 secs. Both groups on the same target with the same point of aim. The groups printed on top of each other... very slightly low and left. The group for the both strings combined measured just under 1 3/4 in. Moved back to 25 yards and fired one string of 10 slow aimed fire, standing, two hands unsupported. That group went into 2 1/4 inches for 8 shots with two outliers that pushed the group out to about 3 inches. Knowing my eyes, I KNOW that the gun will shoot a lot better than that.! I wish I could see well enough to shoot this gun up to its potential.... Oh.. This was Federal factory ammunition (the Syntech loads..). I bought ten boxes of these some months back for testing and this run was part of those. Totally and completely surprised.... and VERY pleased.

I own both an RX and an X5.... I bought the RX first and find it to be a better value because the SIG optic is very nice and it is included. Having said that, I really like the X5. With the added removable weight installed and a tungsten guide rod, it will just about lay down in your hand when firing. I haven't mounted an optic on the X5 yet, but I will as soon as I get my adapter plate from Springer for mounting my Vortex sight. The X5 is heavier and tames recoil better, although the RX is easy to shoot as well. The RX comes with two (2) 17 rd magazines, the X5 comes with four (4) 21 rd mags. Magazines for the RX are available in a pack of three (3) for about $95. The X5 grip frame is different (like all X grip frames..) and seems to feel better in the hand to me. The RX comes with the "std" SIG trigger (whatever that means..) and the X5 comes with a modified straight trigger. The grip on the X5 allows for a slightly higher hand position..... Having said all of that, I shoot the RX more than the X5 right now. I'm getting pretty ancient and my eyes are not what they used to be. For that reason I shoot the RX better. If I were going to shoot production, I would definitely choose the X5. For Carry Optics it's hard to beat the RX. I looked at the Q5 before I purchased the RX. I just felt that the RX was better suited to my situation and as CHLChris mentioned, SIG has a much better availability of parts and accessories. Unlike one of the other posts, I really like the SIG triggers, especially in the X5. After shooting Glocks for YEARS, there is a world of difference when you move to a SIG. It's not a perfect trigger, but it's nice. Don't get me wrong...I like the Q5 as well. But the RX (and the X5..) seem to be more in line with my needs and my desires.

I understand... and I thank you.!!

Here's the thing... Ask a question like that and you will get a plethora of answers all built around someone else's preferences. I will try to answer in the way you wanted it. First let me say that the Ruger you have is a fine pistol. However as you stated, it is NOT really a good trainer for action shooting. It doesn't feel or handle anything like any of the current crop of centerfire pistols used in competition, AND it is NOT built for learning speed reloads. Yes, it has the grip angle of a 1911 (more or less..) but that is where the resemblance ends. So, if I were doing this, I would recommend purchasing a M&P 22 Compact. Only the Compact though, not the full size for this reason. The Compact is made here in the U.S. by Smith and Wesson. All of the previous versions and the full size model are made overseas (Germany..) by Walther. The advantage here is that Smith and Wesson is HERE and will back up the Compact while the full size is supported ONLY by Walther (and notably there have been some problems..). Note here that the M&P 22 Compact is a scaled version of the regular M&P. As a matter of course, the holsters for the regular M&P will also fit the .22 Compact. In addition, the fit and feel of the .22 Compact is as close to a REAL M&P as it is possible to make. Magazines are readily available. The gun's grip is made so that the magazines enter and drop free just like the centerfire M&P. Reload training is definitely doable. So it is an ideal training pistol for a new shooter...ESPECIALLY if the new shooter graduates and moves up staying with the Smith and Wesson M&P platform. This is your best alternative for doing what YOU ASKED ABOUT. Now if you think you might go another route when he switches to centerfire, it might be best to reevaluate. If you are going to move him into 1911s or 2011s, then a .22 top end is certainly a possibility. However, I have to say, that all of them I have tried (owned..) had problems of some sort. Usually function related. Some of them "shoot in" after awhile, others don't... My M&P 22 Compact has been absolutely perfect after the initial first day of shooting. I had three stoppages the first day in the first hundred rounds. All were FTE. After breaking in with high velocity for a hundred rounds and a thorough cleaning and lube, the gun has been perfect since... (more than 2000 rounds without a failure using all types of ammo including 'target' and 'std. velocity'..). The other possibility mentioned here was moving up to centerfire right now. You will have to be the judge of that. It is certainly doable, and there are some 9mm guns out there that would make a decent first gun. But remember that a light weight gun has as many drawbacks as it has features. So consider carefully what YOU shoot and what you think you will want HIM to shoot when he graduates to a centerfire. This will be YOUR decision only. No one here can tell you what you like (OR what you SHOULD like.!!). Hope this is helpful...

I think most of the bullets around have some dedicated followers. I am certain that there are folks here that will support almost all of the bullets at one time or another. My personal preference is for ACME bullets. Good quality bullets. They support the disciplines. They support THIS forum. AND, they offer a discount for forum members. (There is a code for the discount... It gets you an additional 10% off if you are a forum member..). My second choice is probably Blue Bullets. They are close in price to ACME and their bullets look good and shoot good too.

Yes... And I'm sure they could be just fine. I choose not to load with Titegroup for the reasons I mentioned. Mostly the dirty/smoky results...especially using lead or coated bullets. I prefer clean, smooth metering, easy shooting loads. The faster powders seem to do that better and nothing meters better than WIN231 (HP38..). If you prefer using Titegroup, then that is definitely what you should use. That is why there is chocolate and vanilla... Different strokes for different folks.!!

Thanks for your response. Just so you know, you are not the only one who shoots Titegroup around here.!! There are a lot of folks who like it and interestingly enough... a lot of folks who DON'T like it.!! As I mentioned above, I have my own way of developing loads that center on the BEST possible combination. That is what I try to obtain. Example: Before starting a "test run", I sort cases by manufacturer, clean and polish, trim cases to same OAL, clean primer pockets, and deburr flash holes inside the case. Then I sort again by weight and keep all the "like" cases together in a test group. I load all test cases with the same primer from the same lot. Choose my test powder and set up a ladder after developing a start point. I use bullets that have been sorted by weight and for visible flaws. All test loads are loaded on a RCBS Chucker single stage and are monitored at EVERY possible point. Completed loads are weight checked again to preclude the possibility of a double load or reduced charge. All test loads are fired in MY guns (three different in the case of 9mm..), over MY chronos (both a Oehler 35P and a MagnetoSpeed concurrently..). Now understand, this type of control is not necessary to produce ammunition. It IS however where I start (ALWAYS..). Once loads are "developed" I do away with a lot of the sorting and separating and prepping and move the loading to my 650XL........ I realize that most folks are not as "anal" as I am about the process, and it's certainly possible to produce good ammunition without going to that much trouble. It's just the way I do load development. As far as Titegroup is concerned, I chose NOT to test it because I wanted to limit myself to five powders to start with. Several guys here recommended faster powders and gave good reasons for their recommendation. Since my experience with 9mm was severely lacking, I took them at their word and started my testing with Bullseye, Win231. PrimaV, and two others that I wanted to look at. I have to admit that these guys seemed to have a real handle on what works best and what doesn't. In addition to those factors, Titegroup has a decided slant toward burning a little on the dirty side and being smoky.... Both of those things were not really on my list of things I WANTED... so I just took the opportunity to NOT test Titegroup. I also realize that certain powders just work better with heavier bullets and Titegroup MIGHT be one of those. I am shooting 124 coated (ACME..), and I find them to shoot very nicely with my chosen loads. Having said all of this, It still is very possible that I will try some other powders. I have my favorites like anyone, but I also have other loads worked out that I can substitute if I cannot locate my favorite components for some reason.....

PLEASE NOTE: In paragraph two above I mistakenly mixed up my density results with loads from a different page in my loading records. Prima V should not cause any issues with normal loads and double charging. You just need to stay observant as always when loading. My test cases held a little more than 6.5 grains of Prima V at full capacity. So loading from 3 to 4 grains should fill the case half way or somewhat fuller. If you are loading 154s or reduced loads around 2.5 -3.0 grains, then it would be POSSIBLE to get a double charge into a case, but it would be really full and significantly different. As long as you are observant there should be no issues. I apologize for the error... my load book has the right information, I apparently couldn't see what page I was on.... SMH....... AND, I have now discovered it is not possible to edit my posts. (What's up with that..??)

Just now saw this... Sorry. Should have responded sooner. A quick answer that probably won't tell you much.... I think there are a lot of powders that CAN be used, but fewer that SHOULD be used... depending on what you are trying to accomplish. I found both True Blue and Sport Pistol to be acceptable for general use. However, there are better powders out there for 9mm especially if you are trying to stay above but close to the minor floor. I started reloading almost 50 years ago and gradually moved toward finding the BEST component parts for a particular load. So far, I have been able to stick to that methodology. HOWEVER... depending on what you are wanting to accomplish, how much time you have, how much energy you want to expend, and the size of your available cash resources... YOUR reasoning and methods may be a lot different than mine. Having said that, if I were looking for one powder to stick with for 9mm minor AND if ease of loading, metering, and safety were my personal parameters... I would probably choose Win 231 (HP 38...), learn it, experiment with it, and stick with it. It is going to be hard to beat for a very good general use 9mm minor powder. Nothing meters better (IMHO..). It is relatively clean. It bulks up nicely making double charges almost impossible. And it stays below maximum pressure while making the floor. If I wanted to choose a "better" powder to use for minor loads, I would choose Prima V. It's a little "faster" than 231 which shortens the recoil impulse a little. It is clean and meters very nicely. Overall, I think it is superior to Win 231, if only slightly. You have to stay observant because it doesn't bulk up as much which means there is room in the case for a double charge. Just have to WATCH closely. Pressures seem on the mild side and it shoots really nicely. For those reasons, Prima V is my current favorite. As far as True Blue and Sport Pistol are concerned, several of the guys around here advised me to stay with the faster burning powders. They are typically cleaner and the recoil impulse is a lot more manageable for quick shots. I went ahead and tried out those two (Sport Pistol and True Blue..) and found them to work OK. Nothing special. They are not as clean (IMO..), they don't meter as well, and they don't shoot as "soft". So I have put them aside and will use them if/when I NEED them or cannot get what I prefer. They may function better with heavier bullets or larger calibers...maybe. The one powder I find myself having difficulty with is Bullseye. Understand, I am a Bullseye fan. I've used it literally for years in low power (reduced) loads and especially in .45 ACP and 38 Spec (PPC loads...). A lot of the guys around here swear by it, but I find it to be a little problematic for my type of loading. I want the best loads I can get to meet my parameters without pushing the loading envelope too far. Bullseye seems to get to maximum (and above..) before you can reliably get to the minor floor. Is it safe..?? Well, probably yes... as long as you exercise good judgement and restraint. One thing for certain, Bullseye loads shoot very softly.!! It's fast and clean and shoots soft. It does NOT bulk up very much in the case though, which means you have to stay VERY observant as you load. That, along with the tendency to ride along at or just above recommended maximum, puts Bullseye on my list of powders that I won't typically use for 9mm minor.... (In MY guns, with MY techniques, shot over MY chronos...). So, hope that is helpful. True Blue.?? Its fine. Not great. Same for Sport Pistol.... There are better choices. Really.

Let me give you some of the same guidance that was given to me.... A lot depends on what you are trying to achieve. You mentioned "clean" and "low-recoil" and "lower pressure". I am not certain that all three of them go together IF you are trying to make the performance floor (minor/major etc.). If you are just trying to get some target loads together and don't really care about the competition floor, then the answer is definitely "yes". Bullseye will burn clean and completely and is one of the "softest" recoiling powders I found (just as it was described to me..). The problem may come if you are trying to reach the minor floor with it. To get there the loads are really pushing the envelope and in some cases EXCEED the recommended in the manuals. Slightly reduce the load though and it shoots soft and clean. Win 231 or HP38 (same like same..) are easy to load and quite capable. They are pretty clean and relatively soft shooting. They make the floor easily without stressing over pressure. Prima V is my favorite right now. Clean and soft shooting, meters nicely, no pressure issues. Of the ones I mentioned... Win 231 is my favorite to LOAD. It meters faultlessly, bulks nicely so no danger of double charging, burns clean, shoots nice. My favorite to SHOOT is Prima V. It just seems better in most every way to me..... Bullseye is the cleanest and the softest shooting, but pressures are touchy by the manual (if you are sensitive about such things..). All of this is in MY guns with MY loads and MY loading techniques, and shot over MY chronographs (Oehler 35P and MagnetoSpeed V3 shot concurrently..). Your results may be different.! Hope this helps...

I thought that this thread had sort of "gone away", but then recently received notification that it was active again. Since I am the OP, I will throw this out there. And to answer your question Mr. Watson, .... No, I am not still shopping... Shopping was concluded early on and testing began in earnest. I intended to post a new thread with results (including chrono..), but haven't got around to it yet. So until I get that done, here are some of my impressions so far..... I found there were several powders that functioned well in my three guns. As most of you guys suggested, my original premise was somewhat flawed. The faster powders did indeed function well and burned more completely. The recoil impulse was noticeably different in favor of the faster powders. The one thing that gives me pause is the probable pressure curve. I have no way to measure pressure obviously, but the loads I found that would make the minor floor with both 115s and 124s were very close (or slightly OVER..) the recommended maximums. I'm still considering this..... The best metering powder I found through my Dillon was Win 231. That along with True Blue meter almost perfectly. The softest shooting that made the floor was probably Bullseye (just as several of you said it would be...). None of the ones I tried were excessively dirty, although the faster ones were somewhat cleaner (NOTE: I did not try Titegroup..). Of the powders I tested (there were five---Bullseye, Win 231, True Blue, Prima V, and Sport Pistol...) I think I like Prima V the best. Win 231 is easy....meters easy, loads easy--nice volume, makes floor easily, stays under maximum..... so I will definitely be shooting more of it too. Prima V just seems to be clean, fast enough, low smoke, and shoots soft. I will experiment some more with the rest of them, but so far it's Prima V and Win 231. Now, please note I am not saying that Win 231 out performs the others. Its just "easy". It performs across the spectrum of bullets, cases, and primers with little noticeable variation. Its not the leader in any category, but it performs well in all..... As soon as I can get my sh*t together, I will post a thread with test results including chrono results. I was pleased ... and a little surprised.!!

Well, I started to.... but decided against it because there is enough room in my divisions for the extra weight....and it adds some recoil absorption. But to answer your question... It comes out the top. You have to remove the FCU (easey peasey..) Then work a punch or maybe a small screwdriver in behind it to wedge it away from the frame. It's sort of wedged in there pretty tightly with some sort of soft plastic or rubber to keep it from working loose on its own. I had mine pretty loose, but changed my mind so I just tapped it back in place. In any event, once you loosen it up enough you pull or push it out the top. I started to use a piece of hardwood dowel to tap on it from the bottom, but then stopped.... for the above mentioned reasons. You could also probably pull it out from the top with a hook of some sort or maybe a pair of needle nose..?? Be sure to not damage the "rubber" (or whatever it is..). You'll need it to replace the weight no matter what frame you put it in...

Occasional problem for me as well. I've traced it to inconsistent left/weak/support hand position and grip pressure. When I "think" about it (concentrate..)... it doesn't happen.

Short answer.... Yes, you can remove it. Takes a little doing...some disassembly. Yes, you can move it... as long as you move it to another X grip frame.!!..... The weight is designed to specifically fit the X5 grip frame. I don't think there would be any way it would fit in any other grip. Just My Humble Opinion.... Worth price charged...

This thread brought back some memories... I started shooting handguns "back in the day" when revolvers were still king in law enforcement circles and PPC was the big handgun "action sport" of the time. For those who were interested, "bullseye" or "conventional pistol" was the stepping stone to the national matches where it is still king of the hill at Camp Perry. I think we were all taught that accuracy is "Number 1", and everything else would follow. PPC was pretty tame when compared to today's action shooting sports. I got into today's action shooting only recently. Truthfully, I am not certain why other than to say "It seemed like a good idea at the time." I'm too old to really compete, but I like it none the less. I would like to blame my lack of speed on the fact that I am an "Old Bullseye Shooter" as HP Jack suggested.... Only the truth prevents me from doing so. My reduced mobility and declining eyesight reduce my speed through the stages and make the hits far more difficult..... Time waits for no man... Still having fun though..!!

The gun doesn't make the shooter. The shooter makes the gun. Pick a gun that is familiar and that will make you happy.... and still let you eat and support the family. The initial purchase is a one time thing and can be re-sold if you decide you want to upgrade. Until then the money you DID NOT spend will keep you in ammo and supplies while you decide if you want to go DEEP into the sport.

I know family is ALWAYS first. I also know that family doesn't ALWAYS cause these issues. You gotta be honest with yourself and then.... You have to order your priorities..... If you prefer to sit and watch TV, OR if you prefer to go to a movie, OR if you just HAVE to go next door for a while to BS with that guy, OR you really NEED to prep and paint a car restoration, OR it's summer time and you have to go to the beach this weekend, OR it's winter and you just have to take a skiing trip this weekend, OR you noticed a weed growing in your lawn so you MUST get out the gear and prep the lawn for "Weed and Feed", OR your truck needs a tuneup and instead of letting the garage take care of it you decide it is much more important for you to do it yourself, OR the siding on the house needs to be pressure washed, Or the driveway needs a new sealcoat, OR you just have to go to the mall and find a new sport coat for fall season...... Well, you're right, you will NEVER enjoy shooting a match or practicing with your shooting friends. It's all in how you approach it..... I'm too old and I've done this for too long.... I have heard ALL of the excuses and believe me, they're no better now than they were the first time I heard them. Good luck..!!

I just ordered another set of SSP glasses. These are the Denial lenses... regular bifocal with correction in the bottom. I am going to set up one pair with top focal on my dominant side and bottom focal on the other. Just for shooting, should be okay. Good sight clarity with dominant eye and good distance vision straight ahead with non-dominant eye. Then when I need to read something I can just look downward and my non-dominant eye should be able to handle that too. You know reading rules, scorecards, etc... Saves changing glasses to read. We'll see how it works.!!

Hmmm... Well, yeah, sort of, I guess...?? Lexington, huh...... I'm not too far away and I go that way occasionally. I'll stop by some time and force you to get up and move... That'll do away with ONE of your excuses..!!

It's easy.... Start hanging around and making friends with other shooters. Talk about your craft. Discuss good, better, best... ways to do things. Have a couple of brews AFTER practice and matches with the buds. Before long, you will be shooting a LOT more and enjoying it a LOT more. Shooting acquaintances quickly morph into friends and similar interests tend to work together for mutual benefit. Above all... Have Fun.!!

So... How did the match go.?? Or has it finished yet... (..???..)

Your results sound like mine. I think you will discover that the dissonance you feel because of the different corrections in each eye will slowly abate. It took me about ten days (+/-..) to feel really comfortable. It is actually quite a normal response and easily overcome. Just ask folks who wear contacts for reading.. (one eye only..). Thanks for the update.!! Oh, the "jerk behind the trigger" thing.?? It has a way of working itself out.!!

Let us know what you think.... I like mine but it's always good to get input from others. Did you order your correction the same as reading glasses... or did you intentionally move the focal distance out some.?? Your front sight is further out than you would normally hold reading material like a book or newspaper. This usually requires you to reduce the amount of correction some. For example, if your "normal" reading lenses are a 2.25 correction, then your correction for shooting glasses is about a 1.75 -- 2.0. Reducing the correction moves the focal distance out further from your eye. Just wondering how you decided on the amount of correction.??

Aussie Tactical said: "Thanks for the answer. Right now I am thinking we will get either a Walther Q5 of a Sig 320. That way we totally avoid the decocking issue. I want him to be as focused on the shooting as possible, and I am just concerned the manual decocking was going to risk being too much of a distraction for him at this stage. We can always revisit it when he is a bit older and more experienced." You may have already made your purchase decision and if you have you can ignore this.!! Otherwise, let me just say that I went through a few months back a lot of what you are doing right now. I am an "oldster" so the "young" issues don't really apply, but almost everything else does. I was looking for a way to get into Production division with a decent gun that would last me until I either out-performed it or gave up competition. I looked at a lot of guns (and I already own a couple that I could have used..), but I settled on the exact same two guns that you are contemplating. It was a tough decision.... and truthfully, I don't think you could go too far wrong with either one of them. I handled both of them and shot both of them. I have a fairly decent club close by and there are several Sig 320's available. The Q5 was also represented but only with one gun. Didn't matter though, one was enough. I decided on the Sig 320. For what it is worth, I found the factory trigger on the Sig to be just about as good as a factory striker fired trigger can be. It's not too light, but it 'feels' a lot lighter than it is. I liked the Q5 too... Just not quite as much as the Sig. You have to be aware of the hype... Walther hypes their guns pretty good on their web site. Sig does much the same too. I found it interesting that Sig won the recent military contract here with the 320. And there is the fact that you COULD change out the grip module if you needed to do so.... inexpensively too... about $50. or so. Anyway, the Sig is very popular right now, although the availability of aftermarket parts is not as good as it could be...YET.!! Anyway, just thought I would throw this out there. Either would be good I think. I preferred the Sig... and that is what I bought. It's been about three months now, and I am VERY pleased. It's hard to argue with what works well and makes you happy. Good luck with your decision and purchase. Hope the boy takes to the shooting game.!!