jabbermurph

My buddy loads with WST. We talked to Chandler last weekend at a match and he recommended 3.7 grains. He said the groups really start to tighten up at around 135 PF.

Emilio!

if you bought insurance with your package, I would call Chandler. I have bought cases, and the only problem I've had is the scowl from the post lady when she rings the bell and tells me, "You need to come get this heavy shit."

Exactly. The meat statement was referring to what really fuels this new idea: optics. The mag capacity was referring to a "cheese," which obviously wouldn't be accepted by the lactose intolerant crowd. So consensus from some (maybe most) is Production optics-sure, if that is the only change. No capacity change. Still 10+1

The mag capacity isn't really the meat of this evolving idea. I think the Optic at a low cost is what sparks the most interest. It is obvious that most folks are against mag capacity change, but would welcome the chance at an optic.

It was worded differently, and I realized how futile this attempt was. I think it is an opportunity to grow the sport, and give the folks with less disposable income more choices to play. I believe it would be good, and it is worth, at the least, a trial run.

Me too! Eric Changed to reflect the will of the people!!!

So you would stop shooting Production if this change happened?

Every gun still has to make weight and fit the box or.... some other plan? Must maintain dimensions and weight of the stock pistol other than the Optic which can only be fitted to the slide.

The point of the poll is to prove that it wouldn't hurt Production in it's current form. It isn't even close to OPEN, other than the optic. Open guns have almost x2 capacity, major scoring, different allowances for gear and gear placement.

Done!!! http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=189723&hl=

No bashing....pick one. Easy way to prove if this is a worthy endeavor for the USPSA. Production Irons--- Current Production rules, 10 round capacity and all Production Optics--- All current division requirements from current Production Division rules, except: Slide can be milled to accept electronic sights. No frame mounted electronic sights Minor scoring This isn't an attempt to bring in the "Tactical Optics" crowd....although it would draw their interest. It is a poor man's open. Less expenses in gear and loaded ammo

I actually like this idea better than my original one. The S&W M&P C.O.R.E. in 9mm would be perfect for production open. I'd quit shooting revolver and go back to shooting production again if this were to happen. Yep....wouldn't be an equipment race. Many gunsmiths can mill slides for optics at a reasonably fair price. Can be done to any Production gun.

I agree. I think Production Optics and Production Irons would be a huge step forward. Production Irons--- Current Prod rules, 10 round capacity and all Production Optics--- All current division requirements for from Production Irons, except: 1) Slide can be milled to accept electronic sights. No frame mounted electronic sights 2) Start capacity of no more than 16+1. Magazine capacity no more than 16. Should I start a poll?

I think that is a oversimplification of a complex and fairly sound proposition I just made. But even so, what could you offer as an equally complex and fairly sound rebuttle? A reason to simply say "not?" One thing to keep in mind, this isn't the politics of our current national environment. "If you don't like your new division, you don't have to keep your new division," is something that holds true to this organization. There is no mandate that it must stay. I think it is a good idea, but if it wasn't I would have no problem admitting it. But if it were to happen, and it did work.....would you be able to accept that your argument is wrong? Not a personal joust----just trying to get you and others to open up to changes of this nature. I'm not trying to create a USPSA welfare program, so I don't feel like there should be such an iron gate of opposition. Just trying to be diplomatic, I suppose.

I believe the OP wasn't as high as y'all are making at seem. His idea wasn't completely sound, because those who disagree are correct----His idea for a new division was too much like limited. But we do have a Limited 10 and Limited. I think it would be nice to have a Production and Production 10. Look at it like this: Another division like this would increase the purchase of gear and guns, which supports the industry in which we need. If nothing else, it would increase the "economy" of the shooting industry and further generate the life system of the sport we are all passionate about. And just like the Modified Division, if it isn't worth the effort, surely it can be eliminated without any damage being done to the integrity of the sport. But the argument of the one's who are "anti" is that it not only would it not help the sport grow in any way, but it would have a negative impact. I very much disagree with that. So I return the question in in a different light.... How much of a net benefit could something like this have? * Modified as a division failed. But it wasn't a total failure. The organization attempted to broaden the sport. I'm sure the people who played it had a good time. It wasn't a loss. I doubt anyone quit playing the game because the new division was introduced, the sport didn't crumble because it didn't last. The same can be said about this idea. I think it has nothing but potential, whether it remains or fades. It is a possible gain, and nothing else. "It is better to try and to fail than to fail to try and forever experience the inestimable loss of what might have been." I'm sure we could come up with a way to keep it from being an equipment race, and make it a fun and desirable mode of play for the courses we shoot. I see no harm in it, and would even venture to say that, broken into two divisions, could rival the player numbers in Lim-Lim 10 combined, in a few short years. It could be the poor man's gun racing.

What is so hard about mandating reloads between strings? I think that is a much more effective way to fix classifier problems than throwing them out. The argument about states not allowing high caps is bogus, because we still keep limited and open. I never said new shooters don't care about performance, but I don't think that the few guns that can't make the 15 rds should dictate the rules of a division. People from the crap states still shoot majors right? I don't care either way, I'll continue to shoot production. Revolver just got changed, so I don't think a division change in Prod would be that big a deal.

"The night is dark and full of terrors." How creepy-hot is that broad? I still haven't finished the 3rd season. DVD release is Feb 18, so it wont be long

You know how Production is an arms race, with everybody clamoring to get the new CZ/Tanfo hotness? Now imagine that it starts all over again with everyone trying to get the new Production gun that holds 20 rounds in a factory mag instead of just 17. This happened once before, and that's why IPSC stipulated 15 rounds in the first place. If you can believe it, at one point the Para LDA was the hot ticket because of mag capacity. Do we really want that to happen again? Why hasn't USPSA adopted the 15 round capacity limit for production? Not kosher in all states Not all guns capable of meeting production division equipment rules are capable of holding 15 -- trust me this matters to the weekly match MD who has newbies showing up with Glock 23s, Beretta .40s, Sig 220s, etc. Why fix what isn't broken? I don't think that is a valid argument. Each division has allowances that make certain guns or gear more advantageous. 15 rounds is not keeping a new shooter with any of those guns from being competitive. And when a shooter is at the level where it is hindering their competitive ability, time for them to buck up and play the game for real. Production may be the entry level, and cheapest, and blah, blah.....but ammo and components are the real expense, and is what truly sets the level on the playing field.

I had a TS...sold it to Sperman. I only sold it to buy another Shadow because I am sticking with Prod for a while. Whenever a make the move to Limited, I will be buying 2 TS's....they are frickin sweet, and CZC customer service is top notch! CZ for LIFE!!!

LOL...10-4

You know how Production is an arms race, with everybody clamoring to get the new CZ/Tanfo hotness? Now imagine that it starts all over again with everyone trying to get the new Production gun that holds 20 rounds in a factory mag instead of just 17. This happened once before, and that's why IPSC stipulated 15 rounds in the first place. If you can believe it, at one point the Para LDA was the hot ticket because of mag capacity. Do we really want that to happen again? Why hasn't USPSA adopted the 15 round capacity limit for production? Then why is Limited or Open not limited to 10 rounds as well? That is not a logical reason, due to the fact that it doesn't inhibit other divisions

You know how Production is an arms race, with everybody clamoring to get the new CZ/Tanfo hotness? Now imagine that it starts all over again with everyone trying to get the new Production gun that holds 20 rounds in a factory mag instead of just 17. This happened once before, and that's why IPSC stipulated 15 rounds in the first place. If you can believe it, at one point the Para LDA was the hot ticket because of mag capacity. Do we really want that to happen again? Why hasn't USPSA adopted the 15 round capacity limit for production?

I thought the "Doberhuahua" was pretty damn funny