[Saiga 12 Reloading Advantage?]

The only people I'm shooting against are all the other psychos crazy enough to shoot trooper class at the most grueling match with highest round count in the country. If the round count wasn't so high, I really wouldn't be considering using it with only 5 round mags available.

I guess what I'm going to have to do is simply determine if I shoot faster using the saiga on a long course than loading tube fed guns. There is a lot of stationary, standing in one place shooting a couple dozen targets kind of stuff at Ironman. I should set up a couple plates racks with people on the ropes to reset them, and do a couple runs through to 40 or 50 rounds with the saiga, and then 40 or 50 rounds through with my M3. Once I obtain enough magazines, the testing will commence...

[Saiga 12 Reloading Advantage?]

If I do end up taking the Saiga for Ironman this year, I will likely carry my M3 or an 870 SBS for back up....I probably won't have a chance to run the thousand rounds through it that I'd like to before the match.

[Saiga 12 Reloading Advantage?]

7-8 rds at a port, while you are doing a flat footed reload for more ammo, I'm fireing 8 & then reloading on the move. Big disadvantage.

I think your Jedi like shooting powers are more of an advantage than capacity...You came within 13 seconds of Alex Wakal's time on the long shotgun stage at our match last year loading by hand, and he used a 20 round drum and two 10 round sticks.

[Saiga 12 Reloading Advantage?]

Russell:

The only disadvantage I can see to using the Saiga is related more to gear than the rifle:

How are you planning on carrying the 6-10 5-round mags on your person? I know that you've been carrying shotgun shells across your chest and up and down your shoulders. I think it would be a bit of a logistical problem to add in 6-10 magazines on top of 6-10 AR15 magazines and 3-5 pistol magazines. Of course, if you're going to reconfigure between stages, then it shouldn't be a problem.

Well I've already figured out to to carry 6-8 without too much trouble. The 5 rounders will fit in a .308 pouch. I have a SOB battle rig that has more real estate on it than the Super MOUTs I use with the shells across the front. I think I can figure something out. Along these lines, I'd rather have 8 rounders than 10s because it will be easier to find/make a way of carrying them.

Re-reading Wakal's post... what's the load/make ready routine for a Saiga? Lock up a magazine, charge the weapon, then exchange for a full mag, leaving 6 rounds in the gun? How hard is it to seat a full 5-round magazine on a closed bolt? I don't have any hands-on with the Saiga so I can't speak from experience; I'm just throwing stuff out.

Jeremy

With 2-3/4" shells with my Saiga anyway, it isn't hard at all to load a 5 rounder with a closed bolt...so you can start with 6 in the gun.

[Saiga 12 Reloading Advantage?]

The only folks that would gain an advantage with 5-round magazines, in my opinion, are mid-level shooters competing against mere "human" hand loaders or mid-level folks that can't reliably hit zip tubes. And even then, every 9-round speed shoot would leave you and your six-round gun in the dust.

I'm thinking about using it at Ironman this June...every stage has 30-50 rounds of shotgun (on top of everything else), it could be an advantage once fatigue takes over and slows other people down.

Another time I would have liked to have used one was at SMM3G this year with the 30 degree temperatures...I can load mags a lot easier with my hands freezing off, then individual shells.

[So Whats Everyone Take On "kong"]

I'd been watching the original (and Son of Kong) since I was a kid. I really liked Peter Jackson's Kong. It filled in a lot of little holes the original simply didn't answer; i.e. what happenned to all the girls they sacrifced to kong? and where are all the other giant apes? I also liked the inclusion of the pit spider sequence, that was apparently deleted from the original 1934 version and lost forever. I liked that they had better guns than just bolt action rifles of the original...some BARs would have been nice additions to go along with the Tommy Guns. The V-Rex fight scene was fantastic...though I think 3 V-Rexes (imaginary dino even bigger than T-Rex) would have eaten Kong with little trouble. I liked the inside jokes like "let's get Fay" "She's doing a movie with RKO" "Cooper...should have known" and other references to the original film. I could tell this movie was made by fans of the original Kong and I think they did the original creators justice with this remake.

BTW I think a 50 round drum from a Tommy gun to Kong's face would have messed him up bad and Mr. Hayes should have been carrying his 1911 cocked and locked

[Saiga 12 Reloading Advantage?]

Here's a question if I am shooting against tube fed shooters (no speed-loaders) with a Saiga and 5 round magazines (if that's all I can get), do you think it will be an advantage?

[Saiga-12]

I sure wish someone who was an expert in, oh, AR15 plastic integrated lowers would dabble in magazines...

Alex

There is a guy in Phoenix working on 10 rounders...if someone is close to completion, we'd rather not compete with them on what will be a somewhat specialty item.

Time will tell though....it might be worth us doing something.

BTW I think it is less likely that the Saigas will be declared DDs because 1) the court case Alex mentions specifically names the weight of the USAS-12 as one of the reasons it was not suitable for sporting purposes, the Saiga-12 is half the weight. 2) Saiga-12s are all being imported in sporting/hunting configurations and are being converted after the fact or not at all.

It is still possible though...if a DD delcaration happens I'll probably buy a few to sit on for investment purposes.

[Saiga-12]

What modifications do you think are needed to make the Saiga competitive?

I don't know about competitive, but to make it more user friendly, I will be sending it to Tromix to have the fire control group moved forward, ACE stock set installed, Tromix muzzle brake installed, and the gas system adjusted to run reliably with lighter loads (though it already seems to).

pics of the Tromix Brake:

The main thing I need is high cap mags that don't cost an arm and a leg...

[Equipment For A Big Match]

Say enough kit to do the ironman, and vest set up capable of getting you through the toughest stages there.

You will hear lots of calls for "AMMO!" at ironman from people not carry enough on them...I believe they allow assistance in all the other classes. If you are shooting trooper and get outside assistance, you will be bumped out of Trooper class.

6 AR mags (I've used up to 4 on a stage + 2 back up)

100-120 rounds of pistol ammunition, I used Glock 30 rounders in trooper class, I carry 4 of these and a couple regular 17+2s ( I used all 4 30 rounders on one stage last year)

40-50 shot shells, 5-10 slugs (or more if the stage requires), and 10 rounds of buck shot for double spinners and difficult steel.

The vest and belt set up I use I put together specifically with Ironman in mind.

A TT MAV would be a good choice, get either SOB tripple shingles, or TT tripple shingles. Get 3 Gun Gear MOLLE compatible shot shell holders to put on tob of the AR mag pouches. a seperate pistol belt with your pistol mags, shot shell dump pouch, and drop leg rig (so vest doesn't interfere with draw) is the way to go. When running gear on your pants belt or pistol belt get some suspenders to wear with it. If using a seperate pistol belt, get some belt keepers to tie it into your pants belt.

[Equipment For A Big Match]

What about chest rigs and stuff, what do you recommend/ know that works, for holding mags and ammo and stuff, whilst shooting?? and preferences??

I would love to shoot trooper class, but dont wana spend $300 plus buck on a loada gear that doesnt work.?

Any ideas?

Honestly you don't need a vest. You can use your regular gear and just carry a 3 Day pack like the Eagle model or the Spec Ops Brand THE Pack with all your ammo, parts, snacks, and cleaning stuff in it

I like using a vest because I can carry everything I need without swapping things around for the specific stage. Everything is always in the same spot.

What type of vest will work best for you depends on your height/build to some degree. Chest rigs work better for skinny guys for example.

Whatever you use I suggest you get something MOLLE/PALS compatible so you can put it together to best suit your needs. How many mags, shells, etc are you looking at carrying, I can make a reccomendation from there...

[Removing Weights From The Ar Buffer]

I would be concerned about increased wear on your receiver and other parts over the long term. Toying around with the operating components of your AR doesn't help reliability or longevity unless you're making them heavier.

It is possible to increase the bolt speed even in semi auto to the point that spent casings will not have time to fully eject and the magazine will not have time to feed the action especially if you are using older mags with weaker springs.

[Saiga-12]

Well our Saigas came back from RAA today....the welds on the muzzle device look like crap. I'll probably polish them up and refinish the guns.

Now the tinkering will commence!

[Remington 870 Tactical]

The price is reasonable for what it comes with. There are cheaper versions available with simple speedfeed pistol grip stocks. I wouldn't mess around with an AR stock set up unless you want true AR15 geometry like our SST-870 or the Mesa Tactical adapter. Get a speedfeed S stock (13"LOP) and you'll be fine.

I would consider getting one of the police models with rifle or ghost ring sights, 20" barrel and 8 shot capacity. I used to not notice much difference between stadard 870s and police models...lately though all around the police models are better made with more attention to detail.

[Ipsc Not A Sport?]

There are two critical things in regards to sporting purpose when it comes to firearms law.

1) Non-sporting firearms cannot be imported unless they have only 10 parts off the imported list and the rest are of US manufacture

2) Non-sporting shotguns, having a bore over .50 are destructive devices. Non-sporting shotguns are assessed on a case by case basis by BATFE and will be declared DDs by manufacturer and model #. There is no list of features as to what will clearly define a shotgun as non-sporting.

The case in point, was dealing with importation issues.

During the Klinton administration USAS-12s, Striker-12s, and Street Sweepers were declared destructive devices becuase they had no suitable sporting purpose.

What is a sporting configuration has been constantly reinterpretted to the point where the shotgun can now only have a 5 round magazine and a standard stock (non-pistol grip)...good luck trying to get a straight answer out of the government on these issues. They do not want to issue a clear ruling or opinion because then it could be more easily challenged in court.

Further reading on the issues of sporting purpose, you will see that in the debates of 1968 during congressional testimony, that DCM/High Power was also regarded as a competition which uses military style firearms, not a sporting purpose. The Department of Civilian Marksmanship was established, so that civilians would be able to practice small arms skills in peace time, should they be called into the defense of their country (draft = militia service)

The Saiga-12s are being imported in a sporting configuration, but rumors abound that the BATFE will declare them DDs once high cap mags are commercially available.

A completely domestic made detach magazine fed shotgun would have a much better chance of remaining a title I firearm, than those that are imported. This would hold true even more so if they were designed specifically as a competition gun, and sold to military/LE as an afterthought.

The government in the end is hurting itself along with us with these regulations. They're not getting more advanced and continually improved designs to use for military/LE applications because we are hindered with legislation.

In the 1939 Miller case the Supreme Court ruled that a short barrelled shotgun was not particularly suitable for milita service, thus the National Firearms Act was upheld because it did not infringe on the second amendment. Nevermind that short barrelled shotguns were used in the unpleasantness in Europe only 2 decades before....unfortunately Miller disappeared, and his attorney did not appear to argue the point without pay. We may in fact be better off arguing that the firearms in question are particularly suitable for militia service, and thus these laws are in violation of the second amendment. US Code Title 10 Section 311B defines the milita as all able bodied males 17-45 years of age, so like it or not most of us actually are in the Unorganized Militia of the United States.

The 9th District Court has recently ruled that an individual constructing a machine gun (NFA weapon) that is not sold and does not leave the state it was made in does not meet the standard of the interstate commerce clause for the federal government to be able to regulate it.

Attacking the issue from both sides (sporting purpose and militia service) in the courts could end with a favorable ruling. The supreme court doesn't want to touch gun issues at all it seems...even though there are so many conflicting rulings out there amongst the lower courts.

[Ipsc Not A Sport?]

When I was reading this ruling before, there was a part that mentioned the guns or similar types must already be in common use in the sport....kind of a catch 22, since if the guns aren't available how are they to be used in the sport?

There would be a better chance of getting a different ruling today as USPSA/IPSC have grown, and there are more people using detachable magazine fed shotguns today.

[Fire Aftermath...]

Well the commercial property that houses both Cavalry Arms and Ameetec Arms had a fire last night. It started around 1AM sometime. Got the call from the boss around 1:30...got there around 2:00AM. The major road was blocked off at both ends so we couldn't get closer. Some of our staff were allowed in later after it was being mopped up to secure all the firearms.

The firefighters did an excellent job and cut a trench in the roof to keep it from spreading. So our facilities were effected very little with only some smoke smell lingering inside.

You can see the side of the building that got burned here. Cavalry Arms is right next to the fire command post, and Ameetec is on the corner of the front of the building.

Though our offices were unscathed, we are going to be shut down for the immediate future as various government agencies complete their investigations, the building is inspected and OK'ed to re-open after the power is up and running again.

click here to see the photos: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=61&t=150335

[Saiga-12]

Mag fed would have been an advantage at Mystery Mountain simply because I can load mags a lot easier with gloves on than individual shells. And when your hands go numb a mag is still easier than individual shells as it requires less manual dexterity.

[Equipment For A Big Match]

For the MGM, I carry Russel in my pack

you want to use Don, he is half the weight and twice the fury! He used his nunchucks to engage clay targets at the local 3 gun match last weekend after shooting his shotgun dry.

What type of tac lights are most people running?

I use a Surefire X200 on my Glock. Surefire G2 Nitrolons on my rifles with simple clamp mounts.

[Equipment For A Big Match]

I would love a list of things to pack for the Trooper class. Any help is appreciated.

James

This is what I would reccomend...not all is required, but it will make shooting Trooper a lot easier or more comfortable.

3 Day Assault Style pack, like the Spec Ops Brand The Pack, or Eagle equivalent. There are a lot of packs this size out there, that are adaquate for carrying all your ammo and gear for Trooper.

I would suggest at least 50% more ammo than what is listed. I usually take 100% more.

Snacks; power bars, beef jerky etc. You do get to eat lunch, everything else must be carried on you.

Gatorade powder and Nalgene bottle. You can refill water all you like, beverages other than water must be carried with you.

Cleaning kit with rigid cleaning rod. All your cleaning will be done on the range.

Lens Wipes

Spare parts for anything you could possibly see breaking. Or simply carry extra guns as Trooper allows you to do this.

Batteries for all your electronic sights and tac lights (we will have two night stages this year in Waco). Back up hand held light in addition to your tac light.

Rain/Cold Weather Gear

Sunscreen (we won't bump you out of trooper if you need to borrow sunscreen, but plan ahead and try to be self sufficient)

Multi-Tool (to help you make repairs to your guns if need be.

Shemagh, Spec Ops Brand Recon Wrap, or a towel...any number of uses.

Gloves

Duct Tape (take several feet and rewrap it around a pen) and Zip Ties; field expedient repairs to your gear.

Double Long Gun Case with shoulder strap is probably the easiest way to carry your long guns from stage to stage.

[Flipper Clays: When/where Are You Engaging Them?]

Flippers seem so inconsistent as to where they will put the birds, I am reluctant to shoot one then another target then go for the birds. At least 50% of the time I see people do this they miss one or more of the birds.

This past weekend a flipper that had launched clays about 12-14 feet in the air for everyone else, launched one only about 2-3 feet off the ground towards me. I tagged it...but it was pretty funny.

If the birds are bonus targets, I usually do not shoot them as the -5 seconds bonus isn't worth the time it takes to engage the target and then load another shell to me anyway.

[Saiga-12]

The one I had before sending it in for the 2 short barrel, appeared to have much easier magazine changes than earlier Saigas I played with.

It didn't seem much more difficult than changing a regular AK mag.

[Equipment For A Big Match]

Cleaning kit with a rigid cleaning rod. Lens wipes for your optics. Rain gear is a good idea...it tends to rain there around that time of year.

I carry a complete field repair kit for ARs with me...but I've never had to use it, probably because I actually have it with me all the time

If you want to shoot Trooper class, I can give you a more detailed list of stuff I'd reccomend to have in your pack.

[Cavalry Arms 3 Gun Match on September 22-24]

Over here in Turkey, they will make whatever you want without regard for "intellectual property" or "copyrights".

Hello Kitty Backpack - check

Hello Kitty Tac Vest - check

Hello Kitty BDU - check

Hello Kitty Sling - check

Alex

w00t!

We were discussing this tonight...any interest in "Old School" as a class at our 3 gun match? All firearms and gear must be made prior to August 15th 1945 or replicas there of. Authentic clothing not required, but mag pouches etc would be.

[Cavalry Arms 3 Gun Match on September 22-24]

This match has been great fun the last two years, and I'm very sorry that I'm going to miss out this time around. I wish I was stationed back in the World so I could come play!

Alex

You better be there with your Hello Kitty backpack in 2007!