SinistralRifleman
-
Posts
1,707 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Forums
Profiles
Events
Store
Posts posted by SinistralRifleman
-
-
Who was the shooter that used a Saiga-12 in TI?
For 2007, Alan Samuel in Tactical Optic; He told them the correct equipment he was using and was never switched to open.
For this year, I don't know the guy's name. He posted about it on another forum along with photos of him using it at the match. edit: sounds like he may have contacted the match staff to place him in the correct division (post-match).
My intent isn't to "rat anyone out", simply to show that it did not dramatically effect the outcome of the match. I'd love to compete in Tactical Scope with 9 rounds in my gun and iron sight
-
So for the second time at SMM3G I've seen/heard of someone use a Saiga-12 not in open division, the first time was in 2007 with a competitor that ended up being in Tac-Scope, this year a competitor was in Tac-Iron using one. Aside from detach mags, the competitors otherwise complied with Tactical division rules and no one called them on it. When are they just going to be allowed in Tactical outright?
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oB3sd7n7jo
Neat idea...who thinks they could shoot the real world course in under 35 seconds? I think I could probably do it.
-
PLEASE tell me those M151A2s on stage 2 weren't real....
just silhouettes
-
Disclaimer: I shot the match all in one day with the ROs. This is normally tough enough, but 2 days after the brutal Tiger Valley Team match (see vids on my channel) made it even harder. I was definitely not at my best, I had some good stages and some bad stages. I've uploaded all of them to show the complete match experience.
-
For the record,team#10 which was 2nd place were not LEO's. We are just a bunch of normal Texas 3-gunners. I didn't want anyone to think we were passing ourselves off as LEO. Congrats to everyone who finished the match. It was pretty tough conditions.
Shane Guinther
Sorry, someone else at the match told me you guys were. Well done nonetheless. Edited the initial post accordingly.
-
...We don't allow/require competitors to re-holster a hot handgun against the clock, why would we allow it with a long gun?
There have been several major multi-gun matches that allowed competitors to re holster hot handguns; Ironman and SMM3G a few years ago amongst them.
-
Traditionally team competitions have only been open to military, law enforcement or private security professionals. The Four Man Team competition hosted by Tiger Valley in Waco, TX is unique in that it allows everyday citizens to test themselves on stages similar to those at the national SWAT challenge competitions. Tiger Valley Founder, TJ Pilling was inspired to create the match when people on various message boards complained that the best matches in the country did not allow civilians to attend.
The Four Man Team Competition consisted of nine stages. Stages are a combination of shooting challenges, obstacles and physical challenges, and problem solving. Scoring was either based on time with penalties added in the form of time, or hits on target. Teamwork is critical to success; no one person can complete a stage for the team. Because the match is open to anyone with any skill to attend, competitors are required to clear their firearms when moving to another shooting position. There is no moving and shooting at this match. All stages require moving to a designated shooting zone and engaging targets individually or as a team.
This was the second time this event has been held. The 2009 competition was held in late June. The high heat and humidity added to the over all fatigue competitors suffered on an already physically demanding course. Simply staying hydrated enough to be able to finish the match was the challenge. Naturally, past competitors thought with the 2010 match being held in March, the cooler weather would make the match less challenging. They were in for quire a surprise.
The 2010 match weather was certainly cooler than the 2009 match, but presented the competitors with a different type of challenge; rain, cold, high winds, and muddy ground. The first day of the match began with torrential rains that made driving the 16 miles to the range from Waco proper a challenge in itself. The match was to begin at 7:30, but was delayed until the worst of the rain stopped. Competitors hiked down to the 200 yard line, about a 1,000 yard trip from the Tiger Valley command center, in rain and 30-40MPH winds. When the rain stopped, the now soaked competitors still had to deal with temperatures in the 40’s and high winds.
Stage 1 had all 4 shooters from a team on the 200 yard line engage 4 different targets on sticks that were being moved in the high power pits; a walker, a runner, a bobber, and a momentary display target with 15 rounds each. No more than 15 rounds could be fired per target, score was based on the number of hits a team achieved.
Stage 2 was a ¼ mile long shotgun “jungle run”. There were 4 shooting positions where competitors had to engage 4 targets each. The course took competitors through wet muddy ground and sections of water that could be up to knee level. Loading traditional tube fed shotguns under such wet and cold conditions was a challenge for many competitors. Mag fed shotguns had a distinct advantage on this stage because changing mags is not as much of a fine motor skill as loading individual shells. Still, by the end of the course some shooters were having difficulty using their hands because of the elements.
Stage 3 was an obstacle course with several shooting stations. Teams began outside of a helicopter prop on springs. They climbed into the helicopter one at a time to get one hit on a steel target with their pistols, clear them then run the rest of the course. There was a low crawl tunnel, window prop and 8 foot wall to get over intermixed with 3 rifle shooting stations where one team member would engage a steel plate with 6 hits. After everyone was over the wall, team climbed into a snipers hide through a hole 8 feet off the ground. The “sniper” shot at targets called out by the observer as listed in a notebook left in the hide.
Stage 4 was conducted from the top of a 12 feet tall platform. The team had 10 seconds to detonate a tannerite land mine. After 10 seconds or after the land mine was hit the entire team would engage about two dozen paper targets with 2 hits each.
Stage 5 had the team split up into two 2-man elements. One group sprinted 150 yards to engage about two dozen tiny steel rifle targets at 100 yards. The other went into a kill house to engage steel pistol targets, then carry a heavy gear crate back up a hill. The stage ended when both sub-units returned to the start point
Stage 6 had the team go through a series of bays covering about 200 yards in distance. The first 2 bays were steel targets representing pistol head shots, and the last 2 bays were paper rifle targets requiring 2 hits each. The stage ended with the last shot fired.
Day 2 had much better weather, the rain and clouds were gone and the sun was out. It was still just as muddy, the wind was still really bad, and almost as cold.
Stage 1 All 4 team members on the line shoot 15 rounds at one paper target at 400, 300, and 200 yards total possible 180 hits. Score is based on number of hits on paper
Stage 2 Team starts by engaging one steel target per shooter at 100 yards. The team then runs forward 200 yards to a kill house, 2 shooters go up stairs to shoot about 2 dozen rifle steel and 2 shooters go inside to shoot pistol steel. Time ends with last shot fired.
Stage 3 The team is back on the bays from Stage 6 of day 1. The twist this time is that the team must carry a 200 pound dummy on a litter bay to bay (engaging targets in each bay) 200 yards in, then 200 yards out. Time limit is 7 minutes
All told 12 teams competed this year and all of them finished. The team dynamic no doubt kept people on the range in bad weather that would have made others leave individual competitions. Congratulations to the winners and everyone who finished the competition; this truly was a test of mindset along with physical fitness and skill.
Personal thoughts:
The biggest irony of the match to me was this; the sort of people who talk the most about prepping for “the shit hitting the fan” that would learn the most from this competition were not present. Somethingawful.com, an Internet humor website, fielded 3 teams. OTFNation, another gamer nerd/humor website fielded a team. These teams were the bottom 1/3 of the results, but they all finished and never gave up. They can certainly consider themselves better than the internet trash talkers that never put their skills to the test or their egos on the line.
People also like to talk trash about cops; at least one police department was represented; their members taking first place. My team of experienced action competitors got third place; as far as I can tell while we might have out shoot them on some stages, they got us on the physical aspects. I am fairly certain the wounded man carry stage did us in. We were in the lead at the end of day one, and they beat us by a large margin on that last stage. It was a close race in any case. Congratulations to the officers on the team that finished first, they are a credit to their agency.
The more events like this I do, the more asinine I find Internet equipment debates. Come out and prove it on the field. An otherwise good shooter had the battery cover on his trueglo red dot come off while in the middle of the stage and had to go to iron sights; given all the obstacles, running around, and shooting its hard to say what exactly happened to it; but 1,100 miles from home after lots of fine recreational shooting, it let him down.
Lessons I learned to do better next time:
1) Better cold weather/wet weather gear. The cold won’t put you down the same way heat will, it just grates on your morale. Hip waders would have actually been appropriate attire for this environment, select clothing appropriate for your AO. I personally need wet weather boots, pants, and better gloves.
2) While I didn’t feel lacking on the sprinting portions of the match, to better prepare for it next time I will incorporate a 10-minute cycle of sprinting for 30-45 seconds resting for 15 into my workout routine vs constant pace cardio. There was a lot of sprinting to target engagement areas, mowing targets down and moving again
3) Practice moving large heavy things as a team, individually work on upper body strength
Competition shooting is a great venue to learn about yourself and your equipment, and find motivation to better yourself. One need not necessarily jump right into the most extreme match out there, like Tiger Valley, but get out and do something. Shoot the ACTS match in Tucson and you’ll get a taste of what we had at Tiger Valley on a monthly basis.
Results
http://www.tigervalley.com/news/misc/4ManTactical3.20-21.2010.pdf
My team was 0.1184 points behind first place, 0.0513 points behind second place. That's almost within the realm of "too close to call" given some scoring oddities we saw. Results open up much more dramatically from there
Videos:
Stage 2
Stage 3
Stage 4
Stage 5
Stage 6
-
Care to elaborate on stage 7? Were these moles clay birds? I brought some special rifle ammo for clay birds.
US Military electronic pop up target system. The targets are man sized out to 175 yards, but they are not all exposed at the same time. They do stay up until you knock them down though.
-
I shot the match with the ROs yesterday. There were lots of great stages this year. There were no crazy memory games shooting two dozen targets through ports, they were all pretty much straight up tests of speed and accuracy. People who have shot the monthly multi-gun matches at Rio Salado will recognize some of the stages; concepts were proofed out over the past 6 months to make sure they'd be ready for the big show. Stage 7 playing whack-a-mole with rifle was particularly fun.
-
Very sorry to hear this. An excellent shooter and a great guy. I don't believe I ever saw him at a match without a smile on his face. He will be missed.
-
I prefer the Aimpoint Micro T-1. It's a mil-spec quality optic and mine keeps on going after 5,000 + rounds on my Saiga-12. Lesser optics have failed in less time on the same gun.
-
I agree with Jadeslade that cold range rules can make people complacent long term. You can stop thinking about rule 1 below because an RO clears you at the end of every stage, it removes your personal responsibility for making sure your guns are unloaded and treating them as loaded all the time.
The only real safety issue with slinging a hot carbine is making sure that ones clothing or gear is not going going to 1) be able to knock the safety off or 2) pull the trigger during movement. I know of one accident with a hot slung long gun where the safety was knocked off against the shooter's gear and it pulled the trigger.
This is another reason why I prefer to simply shoot my pistol with my strong hand only while maintaining control of the rifle with my support hand; especially if I have to move while doing so. Running with a long gun slung across the front sucks in any case; they bounce around too much and hinder movement.
This thread does not belong on BE. Just the question makes us all look like lunatics. On my (cold) range if you break 180 my daughter will crucify you. Literally. My advice to beginners and anyone else who has never personally witnessed a firearm related injury is that if you witness this (expletive deleted)RUN don't walk and get the he double hockey sticks out of there and don't look back. Anyone engaged in this type of activity has an excellent chance of becoming a statistic of the worst sort. And that puts the sport we love and fight to protect in peril. Putting the lives of others at risk for the sake of machismo is CRIMINAL. I'm not here to anger anybody, I respect people's right to be (redacted), just stay away from my people, my range and my sport. A 61594
Firearms are inherently dangerous. That said, range rules are redundant above the 4 basic safety rules to make ranges and matches so the lowest common denominator can shoot them safely.
1) Treat all firearms as if they are always loaded
2) Never cover anything you aren't willing to destroy
3) Finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire
4) Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Those 4 rules are the only rules any shooting range or event needs to be run safely. Even in the case I mentioned above, rule 2 was violated as the muzzle was covering part of the shooter's body. Normally more than 2 rules need to be violeted for something bad to happen; except in the case of mechanical failure. Additional safety rules that are EXTENSIONs of those rules are fine so that any person with any skill level can attend a match for $10-$20. Not every match needs to be run for the lowest common denominator though. In my opinion, the best most challenging matches I have attended are the ones that REQUIRE the shooter have a certain level of experience to participate so that extraneous range rules do not hinder the shooting experience.
In the end, matches are a product and the people buying the product will determine if the rules are too loose or too restrictive for them. Frankly, you would probably find many of the "outlaw" matches too extreme for your taste as they can involve hot reholstering, hot transitions for long guns, and navigating obstacles and terrain that pose greater risk physical injury than of someone shooting them self or others through negligence.
-
20 gauge magazine fed shotgun is not on any federal radar screen, like the 12 gauge???
The Gun Control Act of 1968 states that any firearm with a bore over 1/2" is a destructive device except for shotguns with sporting purposes. Sporting purposes = hunting, trap and skeet to the .gov. Action Shooting Sports are "paramilitary games" according to court documents where this issue was previously raised, not sporting purposes.
The Secretary (of the treasury, which BATF was originally under) can declare any shotgun non-sporting at any time by make and model number; making it a DD. A 20 gauge still has a bore over 1/2" and could still be made a DD.
There were several criteria that went into declaring the USAS-12 and Striker 12 DDs. One was weight, they were deemed too heavy for traditional sporting purposes. Another was appearance. Magazine capacity was also a concern; there were no 5 or 2 round mags available making it usable for hunting.
If a company were to market a mag fed shotgun and only sold it in a configuration suitable for Deer or Duck hunting, I don't think it would be made a DD. A manufacturer cannot be held responsible for the accessories other companies make for it. If this were the case, we'd already see Saiga-12s declared DDs.
-
I've shot a lot of matches that allowed hot slung long guns. I think its a non-issue as long as the 180 is maintained.
Matches that allow hot transitions from rifle to pistol I generally don't like letting the rifle just hang on the sling. I find its faster to keep the rifle forearm in my support hand and one hand shoot the pistol targets. Moving with a long gun slung in the front is a pain. If I could throw it around behind me, not a big deal. But I don't think that's a good idea in a competition environment.
-
I'm so sick of PC. Yes, we use real firearms, firing deadly ammunition, at targets that are designed to simulate a human.
I personally don't see a problem with that. It's never going to be an Olympic sport due to the people that want all firearms completely banned. So why sugar-coat it?
It's being sugar coated because even those (insert darth vader character here) who should be resisting it feel that the participants gear "looks" too controversial. Instead of taking a stance of education, and reassurance that IPSC competitors pose no threat. IPSC adminitstration has agreed with a populace that is easily scared by inanimate objects.
A statement such as this should never be put forth by someone who has leadership influence in a shooting organization.
" We need to strike a balance. When I see such long magazines and "suicide bomber" shell carriers and additional shells carried on the arms and even more shells carried on the belt, I think it's time to step back and determine if that's the "sporting" image we want to portray in IPSC.
I think it's getting way out of hand ....."
If you feel we are not sporting enough please feel free to step down and find another hobby for yourself.
Ownership of "military style firearms" is on the rise in the United States, and those types of firearms are increasingly seen as more acceptable. Action Shooting Sports are receiving more and more positive press coverage; it's the EXTREME sport of shooting and more appealing to contemporary Americans.
I don't see where this negative image stuff is coming from; if you've looked on the antigun organization websites they show main stream IPSC people with bright colored guns and atheletic logo covered shirts demonizing it as "making light of tools for killing". These people will hate us either way, I see no reason to appease them.
-
The thing that made these much easier to do yourself is the Tromix do it yourself trigger guard. A Dremel tool, can of spray paint and 15 minutes and its done.
Go shoot 100 rounds through it first to make sure the gas system is good to go before you mess around with anything else.
-
Everything on the gun looks the same as later models except the mag tube. You can order the parts from Numrich, but the total for the tube and different barrel nut is like $120. I took the tube off a different M3 once to refinish it, but it was kind of a pain.
-
I use a dremel tool, a drill, and a can of spray paint
If you want something truly tricked out though, Firebird Precision is a good option
-
I have an HK Import Benelli M3 Super 90 that has the fixed 7 round tube and old style ghost ring
Does anyone know the following
1) How do you get the spring/follower out for cleaning/maintenance? Mine doesn't have an end of the tube cap that can be removed
2) Can the tube assembly be swapped for one of the later model M3 tubes and barrel nut to use a full length extension?
3) Can the ghost ring rear sight be swapped for the new LPA style without additional gunsmithing? The old one just has a lot of screws that I worry about shooting loose (I've had it happen before even with read locktite on other Benellis)
-
This may have been covered some where but I can't find it.
Question - If I try trooper and need to drop out for whatever reason, can I shoot in scoped tactical if all of my guns conform but I used a carbine in the previous stages?
Thanks and really looking forward to the match,
Jason
That is a good question. If you have already used your carbine you might not be able to drop out of Trooper as none of the other open shooters get to use a carbine....just don't drop out!!
Adios,
TG
It hasn't come up yet...but we briefly discussed the possibility on our trooper squad last year. The conclusion we reached is there would be no fair way for someone to drop out of trooper IF they had already used a pistol caliber carbine. You have two choices really; finish the match without the guns that are broken or out of ammo; or fix your stuff and shoot for no official score or placement. Given the increasingly freestyle nature of the stages; you should be able to have some combination of guns that lets you engage most of the targets if one breaks or runs out of ammo.
If you're worried about it, I'd suggest using equipment that conforms with one of the other divisions so you can drop out into one of them if necessary.
-
Out to 300 yards a Aimpoint with magnifier is a great combination. The more physically demanding the match, with more awkward shooting positions, the more advantage I have seen in using a red dot with unlimited eye relief and having a magnifier for the 5% of the targets that are actually at range.
-
I don't use any ambi controls. I sweep the selector off with my trigger finger. I use my trigger finger for the bolt release, use right thumb for mag release. If you use coupled mags, start with the spare on the left side grab the mag in the gun with your right hand and hit the release at the same time pop it down, over and up in with the fresh one.
-
Over two years ago...I built a 20ga on a dpms ar10 reciever set, it worked quite well.
I did all the design work for a 12ga...but dropped the idea
The problem is that ATF would most likely deem a new box fed 12ga as a destructive device. they did it before
Jim
Unlikely...they can only make them DDs based on name and model number.
On what basis could they claim the upper was a destructive device in and of itself; it doesn't meet the definition of a shotgun and thus couldn't even be subjected to the interpretation of sporting purpose of not for DD criteria.
If a company was selling complete guns, much more likely. But as long as you sell 2 and 5 round mags for it so it can be used for hunting, it can probably pass the sporting purpose test.
BTW a 20 gauge could just as easily be declared a non-sporting DD, it has a bore over 1/2".
and here another thing to consider; even if somehow they said that assembling one of these into a complete gun by individuals was a DD (though the legislation isn't there for it), people would still buy them and register them on Form 1s.
DDs are legal in my state and all the states I shoot competitively in. Yeah filling out paperwork several weeks in advance to transport it out of state would be a pain, but I'd be willing to do it if the gun worked and provided an advantage.
Either way, build an upper and send it to tech branch for a ruling that it isn't in and of itself a firearm. If they say it isn't, and there is no reason they should be able to say just an upper is a firearm when the lower is considered the firearm and it still feeds through the existing mag well in the lower, you would have no concerns about them saying your upper is inherently a DD.
Also keep in mind that if they haven't ruled all the saiga-12s that are being remanufactured by various companies into tactical guns as DDs, it is unlikely they would do the same for guns made with a 12 gauge AR upper. Companies that are buying Saiga-12s to convert and selling as tactical models has already given them the opportunity to declare those guns DDs; they must be marked with that company's name, city and state because all that conversion work is considered to be manufacturing by BATF (unless the customer sent their own gun in to be modified). Thus a Company X Saiga-12 could be a DD, where the RAAC/IZSHMASH imported gun could still not be a DD.
2010 Tiger Valley Team Match
in Multi-Gun, Rifle & Shotgun Match Announcements
Posted
I'm pretty sure the scoring was similar to this Japanese game show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5V-2PPa4fQ