SinistralRifleman
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Posts posted by SinistralRifleman
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per Stealthyblagga, they will be...but wait for him to post in here to confirm. All the local Rio Salado matches are allowing them in Tac-Iron.
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People are scared of their equipment being made obsolete over night vs gradually over the course of years as happens anyway. I don't think this is necessarily justified. When I have had heads up results (in total time format) vs people hand loading tubes, the shooters with more skill still won.
For example, at least years Shotgun only match Kelly Neal was first with 141.27 seconds, and I was second over all with 161.79. I was using a 20 round drum and 9 round mags for reloads. He was using a Tactical division gun with 9 rounds in the tube and iron sights.
We also allowed the option of Mag-Fed tactical division (iron sights with 10 rounds or less in mags) and no one signed up for it because regular 3 gun rules force them into open anyway, so they might as well set their guns up for full on open.
For what its worth, I am back to shooting a Benelli M3 at least through SMM3G in Tactical Iron/Red Dot/BUIS. My original Saiga got shot to death after 4 years and 9,000 rounds, and I don't see the point in putting miles on my remaining Saiga-12 unless I am prepping for a match with Trooper at it.
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Short range stages can be challenging by adding awkward positions, physical elements, reduced sized targets, support side shooting
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Here's some historically based events we've run at AZ-ACTS
WW2
http://kellynealsblog.wordpress.com/2010/08/27/acts-august-2010-pistol-rifle-match/
Black Hawk Down
http://kellynealsblog.wordpress.com/2010/04/20/az-acts-match-april-2010/
FBI Miami Shootout; One of our stage designers is a forensic investigator and used the information he has to accurately place targets at angles and distances from the actual shoot out.
In this video you'll see us operating a pump shotgun one handed, some strong hand only pistol shooting. Loading pistol mags out of boxes of ammo (some of the agents at the time were using revolvers and reloaded out of boxes of ammo in the car), drunk goggles stage to simulate being the agent that lost his prescription eye wear.
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kill switch said...
Holy crap man! It was hard getting a slot into ALL matches except Nats this year because of the $$$ being offered up for the 3GN. The attendance at all big matches changed dramitically this year.Anything we do that limits attendance only ultimately hurts us.He's talking about club level matches that happen once a month, not nationals. I doubt very many people get into National level events as new shooters. Club and regional level events is where 3 gun needs to grow; most people will never attend a national level event.
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This is the problem I see with allowing more than one sighting system. This is a competition, not real life. I can see guys with EOtech set for the long range and j dots on a 45 for the close stuff. Is this legit??
Logical fallacy, slippery slope. No one here had advocated multiple red dots in Tac-Iron/Limited.
We are advocating IF you allow red dots in Tac-Iron a BUIS inline with the Iron sights to be used at the shooters discretion naturally goes along with that. If you don't want people using BUIS without RO permission simply don't allow red dots in your tac-iron division.
And all you guys that keep talking about "real world" rifles set ups, Ill see ya on my next deployment.....Thank you for your service.
We can't argue about the practicality of various equipment because we've not deployed with it; good to know. Rather than attack the merits of the arguments, you choose to attack the people presenting the arguments. That's a rather weak way to logically defend your position.
I don't need to deploy to know that the M68 + Matech BUIS is an issued set up. The use of Red Dots with BUIS on over the past 8 years is well documented in all forms of media and in open sources of government purchase contracts. It is also well documented and advocated by former active duty personnel that are now private trainers.
M4 type carbines are the most common rifle in civilian, LE, and military use presently. Red dot sights with a Back Up Iron Sight are the most common configuration in civilian, LE, and military hands. Aimpoints and EOtechs are issue optics with Issued back up iron sights. Some of the issued back ups like the MATECH or KAC have elevation adjustment capability.
Frankly I'm surprised to see "This is a game" attitude from someone who is active duty. Some of my Mil and LE friends will absolutely not participate in competition shooting. The main reason they say is games require them to do things that would condition them to respond contrary to their training (i.e. ask permission to fold up a BUIS, when they would immediately do so IRL). The more asinine rules like that I see, the more I understand where they are coming from.
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heh...if I had an M2 to trade you I would. I haven't bought an M4 because they are so much more expensive and don't do anything better (that I can tell). I do however want to get one for the sake of professional interest; it is the current US military shotgun, so its good to have one around in case projects relevant to them come up.
Trying to sell anything on any of the forums these days is hard unless you take a good loss on it. People are broke.
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Let's keep in mind the OP is talking about a Saiga-12. The factory sights that come on the Saiga suck; they are either pistol style irons you can't zero, or older ones had a short rib with a bead. Either way you have a bore offset of about 1.5". Traditional shotgun sighting techniques that rely on a sight picture directly along the barrel do not work the same with the Saiga-12 for these reasons.
If you are using a Saiga the only real options are using a red dot of some kind, or Krebs Iron sight (ghost rings you can actually zero for slug shots). For the purposes of 3 gun, until Saigas are allowed in tactical, you might as well use a red dot.
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So a Docter won't hold long on a Saiga? I'm asking coz that's what I'm planning to use. Thanks
A doctor might be ok. I tried a J-point and it got beat to death.
Also, anything that uses AA batteries in line with the action will get the batteries trashed with regularity.
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A red dot on a shotgun is pretty much like cheating. It offers all the speed advantages that they do on a rifle with the added benefit of the shotguns spread of shot. Both eyes open, faster target to target transitions, and you will find you miss a lot less because unlike a bead or iron sight the dot is much more forgiving if your head isn't in the same place every time.
For flying clays it works just fine, put the dot in the general area and pull the trigger.
I use an Aimpoint Micro on my Saiga-12. Other dots I tried had durability issues when used on the shotgun.
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I rotated them in two shots with Nobel Sport 00 buck shot (12 pellet) 2-3/4". Using a modified choke it commonly took 3-4 shots with bird shot. The lowest pistol rounds I have ever expended is 7 9mm, more commonly 8-10.
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JJ, using that logic then, taking the popular magnifier that is not considered an additional optic in the tac op division, so basically you could say its not an optic, then it should be allowed in the iron sight division because its not an optic?????????
I don't think the argument in Tac Scope isn't that it isn't an optic, its that it does not function on its own as a sighting device. The end result is functionally the same as a variable power scope (and most will argue worse for the purposes of 3 gun than a variable).
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Well results from the local multigun match are up.
http://www.riopractical.com/text/rs.pdf
Stage 1 is the long range rifle stage with steel from 100-300 yards.
Stage 3 was rifle out to 50 yards on A LOT of paper.
Stage 2 was rifle and shotgun at targets less than 25 yards.
Anyway for the purposes of this thread the long range stage is the most relevant. I was using a Aimpoint M4 with 2MOA dot on a 14.5" gun with permanent flash hider (not a comp) I have a BUIS with a 50 yard zero (which remained undeployed!). I'm pretty sure the guy that won Tac-Iron was using Iron sights. My time on that stage was more than double his. All the targets 200 yards and under I had no issues with. I haven't shot a 3 gun match since Ironman in June, and I haven't shot at distance without magnification in a long time. I'll probably keep shooting with just a dot on my rifle through SMM3G next to see how this goes.
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Yaaah! Last year I won a Necronomicon. What other match offers that up? Pan American Shotgun? 2012 IPSC Shotgun World Shoot? 3gunnation? NO. (Take that Daniel Horner!)
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The Second Annual Halloween Shotgun Match will be at Pima Pistol Club on October 31st, 2010
Action Heros: Please note this year optics and lasers are OK, we felt your pain watching you shoot with pistol grip only pumps last year.
Last year's match:
Monster Hunter POV:
Don of the Dead:
Bloodfeast with a Boomstick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwqEB3ChM0Q
Shop Smart, Shop S-Mart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpkqIzbNVRM
Left 4 Dead Team Shoot Off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBPSGb-cpSU
Halloween Horror
Practical Shotgun Match
10-31-2010
hosted by
Pima Pistol Club’s
ACTS Division
4 HORROR INSPIRED STAGES OF SHOTGUN MAYHEM!!!
Zombie Horde 4 Man Team Shoot Off!
Optional Costume Contest!
Match Fee is $30.00 to be paid the day of the match.
E-mail AZacts@gmail.com to RSVP for the match.
The match is limited to 60 shooters.
We must have your reservation to confirm your slot
E-mail the following info:
• Your Name
• Your Valid E-mail Address
• Your Phone Number
• The Division You Wish to Shoot in
Divisions:
Boomstick: Any single shot, or double barrel shotgun
Action Hero: Pistol Grip Only Pump Action Shotgun. Side folder ok if remains folded for the whole match. 9 rounds max capacity. Lasers or Optics OK
Pump: Any tube fed pump shotgun with 9 round capacity or less, Iron Sight only, no speed loading devices
Auto: Any tube fed auto shotgun with 9 round capacity or less, Iron Sight only, no speed loading devices
Open: No limitations on accessories
Information
• Sign in starts at 8:30AM, Briefing at 9:00AM, Shooting Starts by 9:30AM
• Round Count: 100 Birdshot Minimum
• Ammo is limited to #6 birdshot or smaller. No buckshot or slugs required or allowed
• Scoring is based on total time. Complete rules will be e-mailed when RSVP is received.
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Just my opinion, but I don't think the one sighting system requirement is so much about BUIS as it is dedicated long range iron sights. If rifles were allowed with a set of precision irons on top of it and a RDS at 1:30, it wouldn't be much like any of the rifles riding around in patrol cars or sitting in closets, but it would be a common rifle at matches....
Then the rules should specify that all sighting devices be on the same plane, not contrived things about how to let the RO know you need to use the BUIS and precluding you from doing so in the middle of a stage.
If people are worried about advantages I'd worry more about EOtechs with 5.56mm BDC reticles, or Matech Mounts for aimpoint micros that let you shoot out to 600 yards easily than someone having iron sights for range and a dot for close range.
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Talk about 2 steps forward, 1 step back.
What is the most common configuration of rifle in military, law enforcement, and civilian use??? A carbine with a red dot and some kind of Back Up Iron Sight behind it. If the price of competing in Tactical Iron is not being able to use a back up sight as appropriate because the sight died or because the shooter can make better use of it at range, what is the point of allowing them in Tac Iron at all?
3 Gun stage design has stagnated. It has gotten to the point where for the most part, stages are designed AROUND a particular type of equipment/capabilities than general shooting challenge. Why is Tactical Scope the most popular division? Because it is best combination of price efficiency in gear + inherent ease of use on stages. Thus making it the best combination of affordable fun. Now that so many people are invested in a particular type of equipment (variable or fixed scopes) with limited eye releif, it seems like there is no desire to push the envelope and expose the weaknesses of that particular set up.
This is what the Ozark rules state and we will be glad to answer for ourselves:
6.8.3 Rifles may be equipped with mechanical sights or 1x optics only. Only one sighting system may be used. BUIS may be on the gun but must remain folded. In the event the electronic sight goes down the RO must be notified before the stage starts. At this time the electronic sight must be removed for the remainder of the match and the BUIS can be used. Either a fixed front or rear sight may be on the gun, but not both at the same time.
Im not sure why this is confusing or a bad idea. And dont think we just decided to invoke the good idea fairy rule. This was discussed off site with other MD's and shooters. Dont be surprised to see this exact wording again.
As your rule is written I could have multiple iron sights or multiple red dots. I regularly see Tac-Iron shooters with either JP sights on the side of their handguard, or another front post closer in on the barrel zeroed for close range. Are they not going to be allowed to use that set up either?
Do you want to condition the people who actually carry rifles with red dots to just stop if their dots die while shooting your match? I realize 3 gun is a game, but if we are going to divorce ourselves from all sense of practicality, why are we even shooting at targets that are vaguely shaped like humans in scenarios often based to some degree on real world events?
As a dead dot is the most likely scenario, zeroing with the dot in between the irons is what most people should be doing. Removing the red dot entirely just screwed the zero at range.
Matches stop being both intellectually interesting and fun when I have to think about rules about how I can actually use my equipment on a stage that wouldn't apply anywhere else not being able to flip up a back up iron sight when my sight dies or gets trashed is in the same category of absurdity as not being able to rest on a vertical grip directly on a barricade or go prone off mag cinched mags. If you don't want people doing it, simply don't allow that equipment in whatever division rather than putting stipulations on it.
I would tend to agree, that most if not all Iron sight shooters do not have a back up set of irons on their gun just in case. So keeping with the trend a SINGLE sight system was instituted in the original thought. Its up to you to decide how much trust you wish to place in electronics, you can also go with a non battery reflex sight or a reticle sight and not have to rely on electronics totally. if you feel a optic sight is the way to go then why would you NEED back up irons?????????
trapr
Because shit happens, and if your stuff is going to break it will be at a match. Aside from dots failing, if the lens gets filled with mud (take a fall) or sand (Parma dust storm comes to mind) or rain (Tiger Valley hurrinado) the fastest thing to do is rip it off the gun and keep going with irons (though if you did zero with the dot in place, it will shift slightly, still better than NO sight picture).
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I think most "sponsored shooters" (which can be of any skill level) are people who work for companies that make guns/accessories in some capacity.
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Saiga-12 in Open and Trooper
Benelli M3 (auto/pump) in Tactical.
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Those stages are pretty cool! However, they are not blind because they gave you a bunch of heads up before and during the stages as to where you needed to go and what to expect (which is a good thing IMO).
Every stage I've shot that was blind always had a safety brief and/or your rules of engagment/op-order. I really don't know how you could run it any other way and not have people go completely outside the bounds of what you want. They're blind in the sense you don't know where all the targets are or in what order you will engage them.
You also weren't searching for targets they were right there albeit around corners but not hiding from your view.I was in the top 15 out of 140 shooters on that stage in 2009 so I may have made it look more efficient than it was for most people. Many people blew past entire arrays of targets. It didn't look like anything was hidden because you're seeing things from my perspective and I kept my head on a swivel.People get locked into tunnel vision doing this stuff and if its around a corner or a hard angle they might just run past it
I thought these 3 gun matches were about shooting not solving practical problems? I definately enjoy being challenged to shoot my guns in a different manner than I am used to or even like to.
I think it depends who you ask. Many people will argue against stages that are too explicit in telling the shooter what to do on a stage. If we wanted to test shooting skill only all stages would be stationary carnival games with no movement and all the targets in plain view of the shooter. Then it would truly only test engagement speed and accuracy. If we add movement we are testing physical fitness/agility. If we put targets behind walls/barricades, we're testing memorization. If targets are placed in such a way that they can be engaged from different positions for maximum efficiency; then we are testing problem solving. Memorization is also tested the more targets there are, along with the more positions they are engaged from. 3 gun matches as they exist today are really not just shooting skill tests.
Why does everyone always have to have everything so tactical? These are competitions for shooting not tactical training. Sure if you want to test your tactical training by attending a 3 gun match I think that's a good idea. But tactical is ot the name of the game from what I have seen at mathces.
THANK YOU!
People go to matches for different reasons. Matches should advertise what they are, design stages that match their goals, and attract shooters accordingly.
What matches have you been to? Because most of the 3 gun matches I've attended are primarily bullet golf...not anything tactical.
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Last year's IRON MAN had three prop guns in one (blind) stage, and two prop guns in an open stage. Awesome. The key is reliable, accurate is the shooter's problem
Alex
This was the coolest stage I have seen at a 3 Gun match anywhere!
Blind Stage this year
Fort Benning's blind stage in 2009 was also good. All the prop guns they had on those stages were also good over the years.
I really enjoy shooting blind stages and I think it is a better test of practical problem solving than who can walk through a stage a dozen times before shooting it and memorizing everything. The problems I see with blind stages are logistical ones, not with shooting them.
A for pick up guns, they can be interesting if they make sense in the context of the stage. I really have no problem picking up any gun and shooting it as long as everyone has to use the same gun and the sights are not adjusted over the course of the match.
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How many do you want on one stage? If you only have a couple, it may be more simple to have a carboard backer and just put up new paper targets on it for every shooter: http://www.letargets.com/estylez_ps.aspx?searchmode=category&searchcatcontext=~010000~010400~010403
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Wouldn't this fall under the same era as the "soot suit" matches I saw on TV. I have no idea if I'm spelling that right. I know the footage showed them shooting tommy guns and 1911s. Maybe your guys should do lunch with their guys and see what happens.
trooper class info
in Multi-gun Rules / Stage Design / Match Administration
Posted
Trooper is more of a logistical challenge than a physical one most venues. Ironman is the one where it is 50/50 physical and logistics.
These are the same rules you'll find at the Ironman match: http://www.cavalrymanufacturing.com/competition/trooperrules.html