SinistralRifleman
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Posts posted by SinistralRifleman
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I am new to 3 gun and I have some questions about the trooper class:
1. Id like to run my fixed optic up close and a variable for long range. Can I change optics on my rifle during a match?
2. Are drop leg AR15 mag pouches ok to use?
3. Can I use a heavy metal rifle on some stages (long range!) and my AR15 on others?
Thanks for the information.
Trooper has absolutely no restrictions on equipment and how you reconfigure it during the match other than it must all be carried with you from the start of the match to the end of the match.
Here are the current Trooper Rules as used at Ironman. I don't think FB3G changed the rule tweak we made to item 4; it doesn't make much difference though. I don't think using a subgun or PCC at FB3G would be advantageous on any of the stages I have seen there before.
Firearms
1. Trooper Class shooters may use firearms from any of the other specified classes. A Trooper class shooter may use all iron-sighted guns, or open class guns, however they must be able to transport any firearms (and spares) without assistance from stage to stage by themselves.
2. There is no limit on magazine capacity, bipods, scopes, etc in Trooper Class.
3. If a shooter decides to carry more than one firearm, spare upper receiver, optics, etc they may elect to use them on a stage as they see fit. Rifle calibers may only be used on rifle targets, shotguns on shot targets, and pistols on pistol targets. Multiple firearms of the same category may only be used at the discretion of the range officer or as prescribed by the course of fire. For example; a shooter may not begin the stage with a bolt-action rifle and swap out to a semi auto carbine for the rifle targets unless authorized to do so by the range officer or switching guns prescribed by the course of fire. If a range officer assesses that it is reasonable and safe to allow a trooper class shooter to use multiple guns on a stage, they must do so for all Trooper class shooters.
4. Trooper Class shooters may use pistol caliber carbines or submachine guns to engage both rifle and pistol targets. The equivalent start position for holstered handgun if PCC or subgun cannot be holstered is slung across the front of the body with safety on. Hands will be in the same required start position for pistol. All Safety rules including the 180 still apply. The shooter should still bring a handgun and be prepared to use it if stage design makes it more practical.
5. The only thing a trooper class shooter may add to their gear and not carry with them is a hard locking case to store their firearms in the locked stat house at the end of the day. All firearms maintenance must be performed at the range, with the cleaning kit and supplies the shooter has brought with them in their pack.
I will say that most of us use equipment that is somewhere between Open and Tac-Scope. It is generally not worth carrying extra guns. I did use an SBR'ed Uzi for rifle and pistol targets at Ironman this year, and it did help some.
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I have witnessed many a dropped gun (mostly at USPSA matches) as well as muzzles swinging wildly on slinged long guns, never felt my safety was at stake.
Yeah, I'm with you there. The only time I've been concerned for my safety by something I saw a shooter do is when I saw someone turn around and fire at a 45 degree angle up range before the RO could stop them.
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So, as long as the gun's demonstrated to be unloaded, you're o.k. with it being pointed at you? How about being dryfired at you? Where do we draw the line? An equipment failure is less unsafe than a competitor dropping a firearm? Does that still hold if a loaded rifle falls of a sling or a loaded pistol falls out of a holster? It's o.k., the holster broke --- not!
I take it you've never attended a gun show, or SHOT Show. All the guns are safety bonded or otherwise disabled. You'd go nuts and probably have agoraphobia by the time you're done. You will be muzzle swept constantly and look down lots of muzzles. I'm not OK with it, and if I see it I'll step out of the way. Just walking down the aisle you will have muzzles pointing at you sitting in racks. Is this dangerous?...maybe but so is crossing the street.
More than one of the basic firearms safety rules has to be broken for someone to get hurt. Dry firing a gun at someone is breaking more than one safety rule.
I could argue that automatically DQ'ing someone for a dropped gun encourages unsafe gun handling and increases the chances for accidents. This rule will make someone try to catch a dropping gun; you should never try to catch a gun that is falling. It dramatically increases the chances of an ND as your hand clenches up on the firearm there is a great tendency to pull the trigger. I can take my Glock and throw it like a frisbee, loaded across the range and it will not go off. The same is true of every modern handgun; if you have something that has been tuned to the point of unreliability that is a different story.
Equipment breaking may not even be the shooter's fault; it could be defective product from the manufacturer. A dropped gun as a result of poor equipment does not demonstrate negligence on the part of the shooter to the same level as dropping a gun in their hand, breaking the 180, or a negligent discharge. A stage DQ should be appropriate as well as requiring they replace the defective equipment or otherwise fix the problem to the satisfaction of the match staff.
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Wow that thing looks awesome!
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There's a difference between an equipment failure dropped gun (sling breaks, gun falls out of holster, holster breaks off belt) and the competitor dropping the gun when its in their hand. An unloaded gun hitting the dirt is not as unsafe as a loaded gun falling from a competitors hand while they are shooting. Gun dropping out of their hand also shows a greater degree of negligence/inability to control oneself on a stage.
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Pretty neat. Theoretically most useful for mil/le unit armorers to keep track of the maintenance schedule of guns.
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we stage long guns. so why not sling them and hump them around as well?
Sounds like a good idea to me, and I have been to matches where they do just that. Even if you don't need it on that stage.
RM3G and Ironman have both included stages where long gun was slung to be employed later in the stage. Tiger Valley Team match made us carry them even if we weren't using them on some stages. Ironman had hot transitions back and forth between shotgun and pistol and rifle and pistol several years ago.
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This is how we test holsters and cardio vascular conditioning out here:
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If they ever produced it, the upper would be considered by ATF to be a firearm in and of itself as it is incapable of feeding through the existing mag well
Also as in the case of the XMG uppers (Mg34 type upper), ATF would rule that putting a Title 1 Semi auto firearm on a full auto transferable lower is manufacturing a new machinegun and Illegal.
The uppers could be sold to 07/SOTs to make into post samples. Semi-auto uppers could be sold for people to build into title 1 guns. Basically if you have a transferable M16, you can't put one of these on it.
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If the gun is verified unloaded at the start of the stage, I tend to not think it should be a DQ.
However I do think that people should use equipment that adequately retains their sidearm while moving throughout a stage; I'd give them a 60 second penalty for using equipment that sucks.
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I'm guessing at the very least arrive early and expect a line to get through the gate?
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The 3rd Saturday of every month the Pima Pistol Club hosts an American Confederation of Tactical Shooters match. ACTS is designed to test a competitors practical skills with carbine and pistol. The main thing that makes ACTS different from other multigun matches is stage design. Awkward shooting positions through narrow firing windows are common. Stages that physically stress a shooter are common. Short Par times are also common. Under it's current management, AZ ACTS has pushed me to better my skills in areas I previously had neglected. This is one match where the equipment used does not matter as much as being technically proficient.
Every month ACTS has a particular theme or additional challenge that keeps it interesting. This months match limited the number of rounds total available to you, 120 rifle 45 pistol. Resupply could occur at a penalty of 5 seconds per rifle round, 1 second per pistol round.
Examples of the types of stages you'll encounter:
Stage 1:
Me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-HSUIeEI_Y
Karl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvvHgL5b1h8
SETUP: The shooter will begin in the surrender position in the start box. His pistol will be fully loaded and holstered. His rifle will be staged on the table, magazine inserted, with no round chambered.
PROCEDURE: At the buzzer, the shooter will move to the barrels and engage the Steel Target with 2 rounds from over the top of the barrels and 2 rounds from each side. He will then proceed to the table and engage the Texas Star. He will then retrieve his rifle and engage the Steel Target with 6 rounds from under the table. Finally, he will return to the barrels and engage the paper target with 6 rounds.
SCORING: The paper target requires at least one hit in the -0 zone to be considered neutralized. Shooting the Texas Star with the rifle will result in an immediate disqualification, and the shooter must pay for any damage done to the target. All other ACTS rules apply.
Stage 2:
Kelly Neal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns1jIsKGt8M
Me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0hBCoHXYnw
Karl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03Su_DTaG34
SETUP: The shooter will begin standing in the low-ready in the start box. His rifle will be fully loaded, and his pistol may be loaded and holstered.
PROCEDURE: At the buzzer, the shooter will engage the Steel Targets with 2 hits each all 4 levels of the stairs. He will then engage the Steel Targets with 2 hits each from the left shoulder from the left side of the barrier. He will engage the Steel Targets with 2 rounds each from over the top of the barricade, using the stairs. He will then engage the Steel Targets with 2 rounds each from under the barricade. He will then engage the Steel Targets with 2 rounds each from the right side of the barricade, using the right shoulder.
During the course of fire, the shooter must also get 2 hits on each paper target, from any position.
There is a 120 second par-time.
SCORING: Using the incorrect shoulder will result in a 5-second Procedural penalty for each shot fired.
Stage 3:
Kelly Neal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUKI2xOSQjY
Montage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcoNSTr5D10
SETUP: The shooter will begin seated, hands on his thighs, pistol holstered, and fully loaded.
PROCEDURE: At the buzzer, the shooter will draw his pistol, go prone, and engage the targets as they become visible. In order to neutralize the target, the shooter must have at least one hit in the -0 zone.
SCORING: Any target that does not have a hit in the -0 zone will result in a 15 second Failure to neutralize Penalty, in addition to the target points. All other standard ACTS rules apply.
Stage 4:
Kelly Neal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrxjMSRa1Ls
Me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSQrWEcbc1E
Karl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwRBKfVMUwY
SETUP: The shooter will begin standing. His rifle will be grounded, fully loaded.
PROCEDURE: At the buzzer, the shooter will perform 5 jumping jacks, go to prone and engage the two static targets with 2 hits each, and one hit on each lollipop. He will perform this 8 times, for a total of 40 jumping jacks.
SCORING: Each jumping jack not performed will incur a 30-second Circumvention of Game Spirit penalty.
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The position the shooter must engage them from + target distance + how small is the target + speed of target or shooter movement + fatigue by that point in the stage = level of challenge
Here are some of the most challenging shooting problems I can remember:
1) Skinny Sammies at 100 yards from a free swinging platform that moves more the more you shoot. That was more luck than skill to hit those.
2) Precision Rifle Target at 100 yards opening and closing both eyes and chest with rifle, or the same with pistol at 15-20 yards.
3) Double spinner at long range (250-300) with rifle
4) Shooting through that steel donut that counted as a no-shoot on Ironman stage 1 for a couple year.
The hardest challenge at a local match recently was roll over prone shooting through a V-tac barricade at a target UP-hill. The target was probably 18" at least, but it was tough. Using a limited eye relief optic made it about impossible.
The Triple Dropper is my favorite target that MGM makes; it requires solid hit and the number of rounds it takes to neutralize can be dependent on shot placement and the power of the cartridge being used on it. I really like using those for self-defense training classes because of these things, and it conditions the student to keep shooting until "the threat is gone".
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i just cant decide. ive searched searched and searched, i just cant figure out what to go with.
EOTECH 512
OR
AIMPOINT COMP M3
i know its personal pref but i just dont know which to go with. it seems people like both alot. which is more popular for people with bad vision, i cant seem to find that info out there. ive had multiple surgeries for vision correction.
all in all whats more popular at everyone's 3gun matches?
As a former owner of 3 different Eotechs and a current owner of 5 Aimpoints I will say Aimpoint is the hands down better choice for durablity and reliabity as well as battery life. You can be reasonably competative in three gun with a magnifier in flip to the side mount behind your Aimpoint.
Pat
I concur, the Aimpoint beats the EOTech in battery life and reliability; as proof the Military just ordered more Aimpoint Comp M4s that beat the EOtechs in trials.
I am near sighted and without my prescription lenses I can still use an Aimpoint; the dot just looks bigger. An EOTech is unusable without my glasses; it looks like a big red blur.
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In the past the weapons disclosure was kept in the vehicle of the owner/driver. After the match it goes home with you, you trash it ect.
HOP
I thought they kept a copy of it at the gate? I remember filling out 2 copies.
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Guess I have no idea what "weapons disclosure form" you are talking about. Got any more details?
MLM
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That looked fun. No shotgun in the COF?
Did I read it right that only the top 3 teams got prizes and teams 4 and lower got nothing?
Craig
It was a lot of fun.
Nope, no shotgun.
The top team on each stage got a prize, and the top 3 over all got prizes.
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When I can buy production mags that will work with a magwell, without having to fit, file, and grind on them (and at the same price as normal mags) I'll consider using a magwell. I'm sure someone will get on that sooner or later
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The best reload, is no reload. I find the drum to be highly useful. I use MD Arms.
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Glad to see this and I hope more companies follow.
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This past weekend our company sponsored the American Heroes Challenge http://www.americanheroeschallenge.com in Vegas. All proceeds from the match went to benefit the Las Vegas Veteran's Memorial Project. This was an awesome event for an awesome cause!
The match is normally only open to Military/LE teams. However, we were allowed to enter a team into the match because we were a match sponsor. We were the only amateur team with average citizen members that don't do this stuff professionally.
We didn't shoot any hostages and completed every course. Apparently we impressed a lot of people because we were invited back for next year and received compliments on our performance and team work.
This match was beyond cool, and I feel truly privileged to have been able to compete against the professionals. I wouldn't have cared if we finished last; the prize to me was just being able to do this.
Cavalry Arms Shooting Team
Left to Right: Jeff M (MCSO Deputy), Mark P (AZ National Guard), Russell Phagan (Cavalry Arms Staff), Karl K (Internet Security)
Image Galleries of all teams:
http://www.ccpix.printroom.com/ViewGallery...lery_id=1835999
http://www.ccpix.printroom.com/ViewGallery...lery_id=1836042
Every stage of this match was conducted in full body armor and helmet, except for Stage 7 Fight Gone Bad
Stage 1 US Marine 1st Lt. Shane Childers Live Fire Skills Test
Live Fire skills test was a police/mil style qual with rifle and pistol from 3-50 yards. Various sequences of engagements were called out on the two targets from various positions and distances. Shooting the wrong target would result in score being zeroed. Score was based on the aggregate points the team earned by hitting the targets in various zones.
Stage 2 US Navy PO Michael A. Monsoor Rapid Deployment Hostage Rescue
The team was given RAM marker paintball guns, 2 training flash bangs, and a door ram. The team was put in a van and given 60 seconds en route to the kill house to prep for the hostage rescue. On exiting the van, they had to breach the door with the ram, deploy flashbangs in a tactically appropriate fashion, shoot all the bad guy targets, and rescue the hostages being played by two female role players.
Score was based on time + penalties
Stage 3 US Navy PO2 Shane E. Patton Live Fire Stress Course
1) Push HMMWV 25 yards
2) climb over 8 foot wall and down the other side
3) 3 AKs on table loaded with variable numbers of rounds; all 3 targets needed 2 to the body one to the head, teams had to communicate where to shoot the targets when they ran dry.
4) Over-Under telephone poles obstacle
5) 3 revolvers with varying numbers of rounds on table and multiple steel plates; teams had to communicate if they ran dry or needed help with targets
6) run to drag 8 truck tires 10 yards
7) giant tire must be flipped end over end or carried 10 yards, ammo cans must be carried 10 yards
8) 3 rifles on table loaded with varying numbers of rounds. 4 poppers at 150 to 200 yards. Each round over the 4 required to hit them added 10 seconds to the team's time
Total Time + penalties for scoring.
Stage 4 Senior Airman Jason D. Cunningham Combat Search & Rescue
1) Team advances to first position and engages white steel
2) Team conducts bounding over watch to second position to engage red steel
3) Team searches for downed pilot manakin
4) Team treats arterial bleeds on manakin
5) Team extracts manakin with bounding overwatch
6) Team sets up 360 security and pops smoke ending time.
Stage 5 US Army Staff Sgt. Kerry W. Frith Low Light Tactics
This was a police/mil style qual with rifle and pistol from 25-3 yards conducted in no light environment. Competitors used weapon mounted or hand held lights to ID and shoot targets. Various sequences of engagements were called out on the two targets from various positions and distances. Shooting the wrong target would result in score being zeroed. Score was based on the aggregate points the team earned by hitting the targets in various zones.
Stage 6 US Army Cpl. Matthew A. Commons Close Quarters Engagement
This was a police/mil style qual with rifle and pistol from 15-3 yards conducted while wearing gas masks. Various sequences of engagements were called out on the two targets from various positions and distances. Shooting the hostage target overlayed on the shoot target would result in 0 score. Score was based on the aggregate points the team earned by hitting the targets in various zones.
Stage 7: Fight Gone Bad
This was a cross fit exercise based stage scored based on the number of reps successfully repeated. Each competitor had a judge/coach assigned to him that followed him through the rotation
Exercises:
1) Medcine ball squat and throw 9 feet into the air
2) Sumo dead lifts with 75 pound weights
3) Burpees
4) overhead lift with 75 pound weights
5) Tire jump/step up/down
competitors rotated through with one minute on each exercise, 5 minutes in a row, with one minute off, for 3 complete cycles.
Over all score for the match was based upon the teams placement on each stage added together for a total points score; lowest points wins.
Here are the results:
Overall
1. King County SWAT
2. Henderson SWAT
3. LVMPD SWAT Blue 1
Air Force 58th Rescue Squadron (tie)
4. LVMPD SWAT Red 3
5. LVMPD SWAT Red 1
6. Cavalry Arms
7. LVMPD SWAT Red 2
8. Mesquite SWAT
Stage 1: Live Fire Skills Test
1. King County SWAT
2. Cavalry Arms
3. LVMPD SWAT Blue 1
4. LVMPD SWAT Red 3
5. LVMPD SWAT Red 2
6. Hederson SWAT
7. Air Force 58th Rescue Squadron
8. Mesquite SWAT
9. LVMPD SWAT Red 1
Stage 2: Rapid Deployment Hostage Rescue
1. LVMPD SWAT Blue 1
2. King County SWAT
3. Henderson SWAT
4. LVMPD SWAT Red 3
5. LVMPD SWAT Red 1
6. Air Force 58th Rescue Squadron
7. Mesquite SWAT
8. LVMPD SWAT Red 2
9. Cavalry Arms
Stage 3: Live Fire Stress Course
1. Air Force 58th Resuce Squadron
2. Henderson SWAT
3. LVMPD SWAT Blue 1
4. Cavalry Arms
5. Mesquite SWAT
6. LVMPD SWAT Red 2
7. King County SWAT
LVMPD SWAT Red 1 (tie)
8. LVMPD SWAT Red 3
Stage 4: Combat Search & Rescue
1. Air Force 58th Rescue Squadron
2. Henderson SWAT
3. King County SWAT
4. LVMPD SWAT Red 1
5. LVMPD SWAT Red 3
6. LVMPD SWAT Blue 1
7. LVMPD SWAT Red 2
8. Cavalry Arms
9. Mesquite SWAT
Stage 5: Low-Light Tactics
1. Henderson SWAT
2. LVMPD SWAT Red 2
3. Cavalry Arms
4. LVMPD SWAT Red 1
5. LVMPD SWAT Red 3
6. Mesquite SWAT
7. King County SWAT
8. LVMPD SWAT Blue 1
9. Air Force 58th Resuce Squadron
Stage 6: Close Quarters Engagement
1. King County SWAT
2. LVMPD SWAT Red 1
3. Air Force 58th Rescue Squadron
4. Cavalry Arms
5. LVMPD SWAT Blue 1
6. LVMPD SWAT Red 2
7. Henderson SWAT
8. LVMPD SWAT Red 3
9. Mesquite SWAT
Stage 7: Fight Gone Bad
1. LVMPD SWAT Red 3
2. King County SWAT
3. Henderson SWAT
4. Air Force 58th Rescue Squadron
5. LVMPD SWAT Blue 1
6. LVMPD SWAT Red 1
7. LVMPD SWAT Red 2
8. Mesquite SWAT
9. Cavalry Arms
Top Gun
1. Erickson: LVMPD SWAT Blue 1
2. Ferrin: LVMPD SWAT Red 3
3. Pacey: King County SWAT
List of Sponsors
Daniel Defense
Otis
Under Armour
Original SWAT
Strider Knives
STI
Blackhawk!
LaRue Tactical
Magpul
Surefire
Glock
Springfield Armory
Cavalry Arms
Acusport
Swainston Digital Imaging
Fiocchi
Umarex
Sneaky Bags
Smith & Wesson
Beretta
Leatherman
Special Thanks
Purdue Marion & Associates
R&R Partners
Desert Sportsmans Rifle & Pistol Club
Mark Christianson
Billy Stojack
American Shooters Staff
Progressive FORCE Concepts
Cress Lorenzo
Beaver & Casey!
Jim Moss
Erin Cabezut
Duane Dwyer
Mark Mills
Mark Cassell
Vern Hardy
SMsgt. Ron Thompson
Jesse Lujan
Russell Phagan
Red Rock Casino
Warrior to Warrior
AR15.com
Las Vegas Metro SWAT
Henderson SWAT
Mesquite SWAT
Air Force 58th Rescue Squadron
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Not allowing back up irons along with the red dot goes against almost all of the original arguments FOR allowing red dots in Tac-Iron/Limited
1) Back Up Iron Sights are now standard issue in the US military, with several hundred thousand issued already... they are clearly not a passing fad.
2) Back Up Iron Sights are relatively cheap and robust,
3) Back Up Iron Sights are simply not competitive in Tactical Iron division, where longer sight radius are permitted. Indeed, my guess would be that in many circumstances fixed iron sights would actually be more accurate than Back Up Iron Sight.
4) Since 2004 there has been an explosion of interest in semi-auto M4 carbines... most people equip their gun with a red dot and a back up iron sight, making them remove the iron sight is counterproductive.
5) Back Up Iron Sights are relied on to protect our troops who put themselves in harms way daily.
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I tried out a friend's Nova last weekend and it was much easier to load than the 870. I dunno what the work around for the slide release would be though?
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RSO's of Doom on Left 4 Dead Stage (now working):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBPSGb-cpSU
Ash on the Army of Darkness Stage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpkqIzbNVRM
Here's me on all 4 stages
Boomstick Action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwqEB3ChM0Q
Team Shoot-Off (Umbrella Corp)
Why not more "Freestyle" Stages
in Multi-gun Rules / Stage Design / Match Administration
Posted
Why don't we see more stages that leave it up to the shooter as to what gun they want to use to solve the problem? Ironman has multiple stages that allow the shooter to use Pistol or Rifle on paper, Shotgun or Pistol on close steel; It allows for more creative solutions to the stage and/or a shooter to play to their strengths.
So why not let shooters choose what guns they use with the following restrictions:
Paper = Rifle, Slug, or Pistol
Steel 25 yards or less = Pistol or Shot
Steel 50 yards+ = Rifle or Slug
Clays = Shot
You could force shooters to use all of their guns at least some of the time by the targets presented on a stage.