Carmoney

I like cheap guns that are functional. However, I do not like Glocks. When I found these Armscor "para clones" for $389 (dealer), I couldn't resist checking one out. Since I need a limited steel gun more than a limited USPSA gun right now, I went ahead and ordered the 9mm, and it arrived Thursday. The gun came with a beavertail, ambi thumb safety, real Novak sights, short steel trigger with no overtravel adjustment, external extractor, the crappiest black plastic grips I've ever seen (most toy guns have nicer grips!), and 1 Mec-Gar 17-round 9mm/.38Super magazine with "law enforcement or export" markings. All in all, my impression was that the gun wasn't as good as I had hoped, but nowhere near as bad as I had feared it might be. Everything looked pretty much pure "para" in terms of design. The frame-to-slide fit was pretty rattly, but the barrel to slide fit seemed pretty decent, both front and back--and that's what counts, right? So I took it out back to try it out. Out of the box, it functioned great, no jams of any sort, but threw half the brass directly into my face (although it did this much more gently than a Glock). It also had a very heavy trigger pull, and hit way low at 10 yards with Rem. bulk-pack 115-gr ball ammo. I began the project by filing a bevel on the ejector to send the brass out to the side, easy enough to do, hasn't tossed one back in my face since. I put skateboard tape on the grip-strap, and did a quick trigger job on the stock parts with my Ed Brown jig, taking it down to about 2-3/4 pounds and fairly crisp. On test-fire, though, the hammer began to follow down intermittently, so I looked inside and figured I'd be better off replacing the hammer and sear with better parts. I'm close enough to Brownells that I can get one-day USPS delivery on small packages, so I placed an online order for an extra magazine, the new EGW budget ignition package, and a GunCraft long para trigger (I like the looks of the STI carbon fiber trigger for para better, but it's no longer being stocked). Last night I put it all together. The trigger was kind of a bitch to install correctly, and in fact the bow is shaped a little differently, requiring me to dremel off part of the upper rear corners of the bow to get proper clearance under the grips. The EGW hammer and sear were not at all finished, and required the full treatment, including lowering the hammer hooks and stoning both angles on the sear (what do you want for $68 total, I suppose...). I wound up re-installing the factory disconnector because the EGW unit wanted to stick in the channel for reasons I still don't quite understand. After adjusting everything a few times, test-firing in between, I now have a pretty decent budget trigger job, about 2-3/4 pounds and reasonably clean, which is about as low as I want to go with this particular gun (I normally prefer 1911 triggers at about 2 pounds) and these parts. In order to get it sighted in to point of aim, I drifted out the front sight (yep, it's in a nice dovetail, which is pretty cool for a cheapie gun), filed it narrower, and filed it down lower. I reinstalled it backwards to give me a slightly-undercut black post, rather than the non-serrated ramp that was stock. After a little adjustment to dial it in, it's hitting exactly to point of aim, seems reasonably accurate--not a bullseye gun by any means, but so far seems fine for what I bought it for. I haven't shot any groups with it yet, but painted my plate and shot it standing non-supported, put 20 shots in a nicely-centered round group about 4" at 20 yards. It fits in my Safariland 012, and it's made to work with Para mags. In the .40 version, with a magwell, you could have a real limited gun (not a great limited gun, but a real one nonetheless) for about $650, less mags and basepads. Would it hold up? Who knows! I'm gonna shoot this 9mm version and find out! Here's a photo:

I would be interested if the price was halfway reasonable. I can buy a nice 25-2 for $450-500, do the action and be ready to roll. I would not pay $1,000 or $1,200 just to get the Ti cylinder. Mike

It would also be a great set-up for steel!

Randy, thanks again for sharing your experience and expertise with us. I cannot think of another professional gunsmith who would take the time and effort to do this. Very interesting stuff, even an opinionated SOB like me can learn a lot here! What a great dialogue.... Mike

Gary, I sure do remember!! In fact, that's one of the first places I ever shot any sort of handgun competition, about 35 pounds ago! Have a great match, and if you see any of the old-timers, tell them I said hello! Mike

ya THINK???

How about all those bad-ass Arizona ICORE guys we were hearing about?? Did any of them sign up?

Six Shot, rwmagnus: I'm relieved to hear somebody's going to be there to keep ol' Dan honest!! (Dan, be sure to check out the revolver grips that Six Shot makes--very cool stuff!) I'm sure you guys will have a great time at the Rio, I really do wish I could be there shooting it with you. Good luck to all of you, Mike

So help me, Dan, if you're the only revolver shooter at Area 2, I'm gonna start a thread called "How to Game the Point Series on Only $2,500 in Plane-Fare"........

Jerry who?

Gosh Rob, I would think wearing a ball lock on your yoke would be even more painful than getting a hole in the palm....

Randy, I have two areas of concern that I'll toss out here: 1. We have experienced some problems with the Ti cylinder in the 646, in terms of sticky extraction. The original "PC" run are almost useless, from the many reports I've heard, and the second run of non-PC guns, while much better, tend to be finicky about loads, particularly when running them at major power factor. It's no fun to shoot one of these guns when you know you might have to put a hole in the palm of your left hand to get the moonclip out.... Some of this seems connected to the type of moonclip used--I thought the solid clips would be the answer, in fact they made it worse--but many believe it's related to the cylinder itself. What are the 325 owners experiencing here? Will we have intermittent extraction problems? Has anyone definitively figured out why the 646 tends to have this problem? 2. Sub-3 pound DA pull....hmm. Randy, again only playing devil's advocate, OK? Where is the point of diminishing returns, for gosh sakes? There has got to be a point in seeking the holy grail of the ultra-light double-action that you start sacrificing trigger rebound. And a lively trigger return is real important for shooting IPSC. I did talk to one high-level revo shooter this summer who quietly admitted that he desecrated his Apex action job by putting a heavier rebound spring back in, said he tried it but it just felt too sluggish to him...

I'm happy to report Jill received her plaque a couple days ago, as promised. It's pretty cool looking, she refused to put it up on the wall in my home office with mine and Sam's, and now it has a special spot in her bedroom with all the hard rock music posters and other teenager crap.... Thanks, EB! Mike

Rob, still not sure what you mean, where do I pull on this thing to try out this thing you call "single-action"?

Tim: Just so you know what's going on here.....Bubber, Hopalong, Luke, and Chuck are trying to talk you into getting a slow ol' K-frame so they can try to whip up on you with their moonclip guns. Trust me, this is a bunch of extremely devious gamers. Me, I always play it straight here on the forum (just ask around), and I'll tell you this much: If you want to shoot IPSC revo, get a 625 or 25-2 or you'll wish you had later. Mike

OK, Dave, I received the sample moonclip you sent me, and I'm still not quite convinced......in order to make an intelligent determination as to whether these things are any good, I'm going to need to try a few more. Please send 50 additional free samples to me at your earliest convenience. Mike

OK, Dave, my unofficial roadside survey indicates a nice improvement over last year. We had a reasonably mild winter out here and no major flooding during the nesting season. I'm about to go drive into town to pick up Sam from Scouts and I fully expect to see at least a bird or two along the roads--it's that time of evening! Unfortunately, we're not going to have a tremendous pheasant crop out here, because we don't have great populations of birds anymore, for two reasons (in my opinion): 1. Too much ground has come out of CRP back into production. I'm generally not a big believer in government hand-outs, but I really did like the CRP program for its environmental benefits. I can think of all sorts of other entitlement programs that should have been chopped first, and I'll bet you can too. 2. The predator population is getting absolutely out of control. I keep hearing that fur prices have gone back up, but hardly anybody bothers to hunt fox or coyotes these days. And it seems like every other freakin' telephone pole has some sort of hawk or eagle perched on it. So, I expect 2006 to be a "slightly above average" pheasant year, all things considered. Still better than at least 48 other states in the country, I suppose.... Mike

Rob, "single action"? I don't believe I'm familiar with that phrase.......

...but there's now a beginner in A!

Speaking of which, I have noticed a number of IPSC revo shooters who slam their cylinders open and closed MUCH harder than necessary.....

Well, I dunno about "much lighter trigger pull".... Randy, how much practical difference would a Ti cylinder really make? I understand the theoretical difference, but isn't the vast majority of the trigger pull weight generated by the mainspring and rebound spring tension in these things? If everything's set up right, it shouldn't take too much energy to rotate a balanced cylinder on its axis, right? On the other hand, if it's a drop-in swap, might be interesting to try it, if for no reason than to have a harder cylinder and reduce the peening of the cylinder stop notches which some people seem to have.... Mike

The bullet-pulling thing would be happening because the whole dang gun is too light, right? Titanium cylinder might still have some merit in a heavier gun, for the reasons that Randy suggests.... Looks to me like the Ti 325 cylinder is quite a bit shorter than a 625 cylinder, which would necessitate a significant barrel set-back and shortening of the ejector rod and center pin. Not too big a deal, but it's hard to imagine there would be enough benefit from the lighter cylinder to justify the cost of the part and the installation work. Still interesting to think about, though..... Mike

I haven't seen him shoot it, but I know that Dave Williams owns and uses a Model 29 retrofitted for moonclips in competition sometimes.

Yepper, the Millett rear sight does indeed come in 3 or 4 different heights, and only the shortest one gives that shallow look you're talking about. I think I have the .360" on my 625...... I haven't seen the Bowen sight, but I would suspect the white outline could be removed fairly easily with the correct chemicals and/or tools! Mike

I agree with Hopalong, I've never found anything better than a Millett sight for a wheelgun in all the......uh.....in all the months I've been shooting IPSC. Mike