Carmoney

It's official, the notice is posted on the USPSA match calendar, and the entry form is posted here: http://www.ioweb.com/oops/ Note that only Single-Stack can be shot on Saturday, and only Revo can be shot on Sunday. We will be changing the stages between the matches. Note the revolver match will include a Revo-appropriate 6-round neutral classifier. This is going to be big fun, guys! You've seen all these articles in Front Sight about the good old days, right? Now's your chance to live it! Retro is cool, and it doesn't get any more retro in our game than 1911s and wheelguns! (Feel free to leave the tight shorts and tube socks in the bottom drawer.....) Stages are being designed now--let me know if you have any requests. Questions? Post here, or you can email or call me for more info.

Two problems I've seen with the Weigand blade: (1) they don't fit very well, and tend to flop around quite a bit. Probably not enough to matter while actually shooting, but it bugs me; (2) the edges eventually turn silver in color and because they're aluminum, you can't cold-blue 'em and make 'em nice and black again. I've never found anything better than the Millett rear revolver sight.

I like the sound of that: The "Whip Hammer"--available this fall from the Rotary Gunsmithing Institute. (The cut-down hammer on the 25-2 Sam shoots is now actually less than half of its original weight. I whittled away at that one from every conceivable direction. Jack Dremel sure would have been proud of what we've accomplished together....) Now let's be honest, Dave--you felt the action on my 625 at Area 3 and the first thing you said was, "Kinda heavy, isn't it?" And that's what happens when you get spoiled by one of those Apex guns, your finger muscles get all flaccid.

Do so at your own peril!

pskys2 is your source for info about using the 29/629 cut for moons in competition.

I'm not in favor of changing the application of Rule 6.2.5.1 in this situation. Keep in mind this rule is not just a revolver rule, it also controls shooters in other divisions who game the equipment beyond the division rules. I think this one could be a slippery slope. I don't like the idea that somebody would decide to shoot Revo with an 8-shot revolver, just to have that extra round to use now and then whenever one more quick shot to finish the stage would be preferable to taking an extra standing reload or scoring a miss. I don't think it would affect anybody at the higher end of the match results, frankly, but if we're going to try to attract more shooters into pulling out "Grandpa's .38" and shooting with us, the last thing we need them to see is that sort of stuff going on. Remember how many people felt that SIX-RELOAD-SIX was our fundamental rule, and the rest didn't matter too much? Rule 6.2.5.1 just helps keep everybody honest. And, if you're shooting a 7- and 8-shooter, and you make an honest mistake and pop off an extra round, then no big deal, you smack yourself in the forehead and have fun the rest of the match shooting in Open. I say leave this one alone.

Excellent point. According to the website, there are now 13,404 classifiers in the database for the Revolver division, which is more than enough to establish our own realistic high hit factors for each of the 65-70 classifiers currently in use. All Sedro has to do is hit a couple different buttons on the computer--all the data's already in there.

Yep. Anytime, anywhere.

AZ, run a search here and you should be able to find my diatribe against the C&S pins. Synopsis: I think they are 100% bad news. Others feel differently, but I had too much bad luck for it to be just bad luck. If you know what I'm saying.

HA!

Just for the record, Cliff surpassed the 85% mark at the 2005 USPSA Nationals. You make some excellent points, though, Stan.

Dude, Cliff's hardcore. My strategy is to figure out a way to cut him completely off from the Silver Bullets the night before, and by match time in the morning he should be in full-blown DTs.

Gary, I don't think there's any way to change the vote, but that's OK, this is just an informal gathering of everybody's thoughts anyway....ultimately, it will be up to USPSA's leadership to decide how to handle the issue....having Area 5 Director Gary Stevens following along with us gives me confidence that it will be addressed, though. Anyway, we'll just consider your vote a YES--glad to have you on board! Paul, I agree wholeheartedly. Anybody out there who believes they have a legitimate vested interest in this issue, and at least some reasonable background of knowledge in revolver shooting, should feel welcome to vote. And of course that includes you!

We sure had a good time, didn't we Walt? Only bad thing was not getting to spend much time with the other wheelmen who were shooting on a different schedule from Squad 45. I've shot with all of them at various times in the past and they're all first-rate people to be around! Great match--thanks to everybody involved. Any news yet on whether the fine Mill Creek range will be next year's Area 3 venue?

Gary, you're welcome! And you're right about how more and more people are being attracted to the fun of shooting a revolver in USPSA. I've only been shooting IPSC/USPSA regularly since the summer of '04, but I have never heard a negative word (other than good-natured kidding around) from anyone about shooting the wheel. Quite the contrary! At Area 3 this past weekend, I had my electronic muffs turned up all the way and heard an RO on one stage whisper to the other, "Man, I just love watching these revolver guys shoot, don't you?" The other RO said, "Definitely." At lunch Dave W. and I were grilled for equipment information by a well-known and influential shooter who's obviously thinking about gearing up for Revo. More and more people are wanting to join the fun! And we welcome them!

The "available to the general public" means just what it says. You can buy it or build it. That would not include some special revolver that is available only to that factory's special team or whatever (which addresses at least one of RGS's concerns). Rob's response is exactly on target. In IPSC/USPSA, the default mode has always been that you can make whatever modifications you want, unless specifically told otherwise. But, if some folks still think the rules are ambiguous, then perhaps we're not quite there yet. If Bill's not sure, then there may be plenty of other folks out there who are not sure. As reluctant as I am to change the language after the vote is underway, I am going to take your suggestion, Gary, and do exactly that, and add one more clause which indicates that modifications are allowed. I know you have significant experience in this area, and I appreciate your allowing us to benefit from that. To those who have voted--I don't want to mislead anyone who may be following this--if this change changes your vote, please speak up and let us know, OK? Hopefully this will do it. See above.

Gary, thanks for taking an interest in this issue. If and when it becomes clear that we have a consensus here, we will gratefully accept your assistance. Mike

John, not sure what you mean. With my proposal, only ports and comps are prohibited (as to barrels). Anything else goes. If it's not specifically prohibited, then it's allowed.

The Production guy once hit 95% but then his percentage has dropped back down below that level since. Excepting special circumstances, once you hit a certain class in USPSA, you never go back down.

US APPENDIX D10 US Revolver Standard Division 1 Minimum power factor for Major 165 2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125 3 Minimum bullet weight No 4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354") / 19mm (0.748") 5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major No 6 Minimum trigger pull (see Appendix F2) No 7 Maximum handgun size No 8 Maximum magazine length Not applicable 9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, Maximum of 6 fired before reload. 10 Max. distance of handgun and speed loaders from torso 50mm 11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies Yes 12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment No 13 Optical/electronic sights permitted No 14 Compensators permitted No 15 Ports permitted No Special conditions: 16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired before reloading. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1 (Rule 6.2.5.1: However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. 17. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components) available to the general public is permitted. Internal and external modifications to the revolver are permitted, as long as these modifications do not violate items 13, 14, or 15 above. 18.--19. [DELETED] 20. "Self-loading" revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this Division.

Sounds close Mike, but rule 17 was brought up in my discussion with John A, remove "except prototypes" in section 17 and maybe even the "OFM" part ?? OK, everybody hold on now. The idea is to remove silly potential restrictions that don't matter and will only serve to turn away potential shooters, and leave the potential for controversy down the line. Dave and I almost had that figured out, but now we've got 14 different versions floating around. So how's this: US APPENDIX D10 US Revolver Standard Division 1 Minimum power factor for Major 165 2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125 3 Minimum bullet weight No 4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354”) / 19mm (0.748”) 5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major No 6 Minimum trigger pull (see Appendix F2) No 7 Maximum handgun size No 8 Maximum magazine length Not applicable 9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, Maximum of 6 fired before reload. 10 Max. distance of handgun and speed loaders from torso 50mm 11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies Yes 12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment No 13 Optical/electronic sights permitted No 14 Compensators permitted No 15 Ports permitted No Special conditions: 16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired before reloading. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1 (Rule 6.2.5.1: However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. 17. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components) available to the general public is permitted. 18.--19. [DELETED] 20. “Self-loading” revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this Division. THERE!! DONE!! Now go vote YES or NO on my other thread.

Sounds good to me, Dave. I hope we can make it as inclusive and non-picky as possible.

Thanks fellas! We had a great time at another fine Area 3 match. Once again, we escaped bad weather, shot a bunch of fun stages, and saw another fantastic prize table thanks to a set of great sponsors, particularly CZ-USA. Every class with 5 or more shooters within every division was shooting for a gun prize, plus another gun for high overall in each division--is that awesome or what?? We need to get a bunch more wheels at this match next year and make sure there's at least 5 shooters in every class from M through D! I shot well. The range equipment issue on Stage 3 was upsetting, but all things considered it was handled correctly and consistently. RM Tom Drazy came over and addressed it with me, at my request, and was understanding and appropriate even when he had to make the adverse ruling. He's a class guy (who just so happens to be damn good with a revolver!) and an old pin-shooting compadre of mine from way, way back. Bottom line--I thought the whole staff at A-3 did a great job again this year--thanks to all. Sam shot another strong match, finishing at 84% and taking second place on four stages and never lower than fifth place on any stage. Not bad for a 13-year-old kid who's far too distracted by his hormones to actually practice his shooting. I almost had to drag him down there, making him miss game three of the county baseball tournament and a birthday party at some girl's house--he was not happy. Needless to say, the excitement of winning a gun (a really nice CZ target rifle) was a big motivator for him. Thanks again to everybody for treating him so well! Sam and I both really enjoyed the time spent with such good friends. Seriously, though--put this match on your calendars for next year. Area 3 is a premiere event.

Dave, I guess if we manage to get things clarified, then OK. But we already have at least one dedicated revolver guy who is expressing some frustration with the majority's preferences (RGS), and the absolute last thing we need is to splinter our already-too-small group by asking for advance rulings and start hashing this stuff around publicly, creating a potential "us and them" situation within our own ranks. I don't want to see things go like they have in Production, where there was a big ugly scene at the World Shoot because some shooters thought they saw a "silver spot" under the points leader's trigger guard--"silver spot" that couldn't have possibly had any impact on the outcome of the match. As somebody has already pointed out, Limited Division has not been plagued with a hyper-technical interpretation of the rules--people know what's OK and what's not. This has also been the case with Revo, until now. But now the pot is stirred. So I guess we'll see what happens, huh?

Now see, Bill, I don't think that's actually true. Somewhere in my basement I have a printed-off email from John Amidon reiterating that if the part is modified in such a way that it simply replicates a factory-available part, it's OK. Chamfered cylinders are factory stock on some 625s. So it's fine--end of issue.