Randy Lee

Mike, I think the MIM cylinder stops definitely wear faster than the forged versions. Both can fail, but the wear on the MIM parts seems more accelerated for an equivalent number of rounds fired. On the original 6.5" 625 thread, there was some discussion on the cylinder stop slots and edge rollover as the cylinder is opened. Slight peening on the entry side of the slot will also exacerbate skipping. I deepened the entry slot by about .002" on the proto gun. So far my 627 has about 8000 rounds thru the Ti cylinder without evidence of peening, or even wear for that matter. The 625 proto has only about 800 rounds thru the cylinder from match and practice, but again no peening is evident. The 625 has the MIM cylinder stop, but there does not appear to be any accelerated wear on the dome. My 627 has a forged version which also shows normal (less than the MIM part) wear. With the 627, I can get pretty spastic on the trigger pull- 12 lbs of finger force on a sub 4lb trigger pull(I can see Jerry M. shaking head sadly). I believe there is far less inertia related wear and damage imparted to all parts involved with the Ti cylinder. The 20 stock 625's in the shop ALL show mild to extreme peening. The more used ones obviously show metal deformation on both the stop ledge as well as the entry side of the slots. For us competition revo shooters(125 pf or .45acp 165 pf), it would be nice if Smith went back to locating the entry notch in the center of the slot. We aren't shooting .44 mag snubbies where the cylinder stop was being pushed out of the slot by rearward recoil impulse. This would also help reduce the liklihood of skipping.

Patience is definitely a learned response- at least it was for me. If this work has taught me anything, it's patience. Oh, and learn from my mistakes. One day, I suspect you will laugh about it. Case in point- My first 1911 customizing project was on an Auto Ordnance(my own). I figured if Bruce Gray could do it, I could too. I don't think I told Bruce this story yet, but I will. In any event, after friction welding the bushing to the barrel(fitting a match bushing), cracking the slide behind the thumb safety cut( slide tightening), slicing my palm open and Dremel "checkering" the mainspring housing- which more closely resembled alien crop circles than checkering, I finally understood what patience meant in the grand scheme of things. Patience and the right tools for the job. The smith should be able to remove the offending screw extractor. I'll bet they have broken a few drills, taps and reamers in the course of their work and have learned to remove the broken bits without any evidence that the event occured at all.

Wow! Metal termites!

I am thankful that roughly 98% of my customers are repeat customers. Most are very understanding and patient. They know I do my best or I won't do it at all. Then there are the other customers....

Rob, The K-frame M66 I have is WELL below 4.5 lbs. The K frame lends itself to lighter trigger pulls- less mass in the cylinder, and no moonclip to potentially dampen the firing pin strike. Plus you aren't really that worried about splits. Randy

Man, I gotta get out of the shop more often... For the revolver, I also forgot to add that reducing the mass of the hammer and therefore the mainspring weight also reduces the load that the rebound slide has to overcome in order to reset the hammer.

Thanks Mike, It took me what, five paragraphs to say what you did in one sentence?

I hate my boss...

Greetings, If you have a vise to hold the gun by the barrel( pad the vise jaws to prevent marring), gently heat the head of the screw using a propane torch. Set the torch on low so as not to discolor the frame metal. Move the tip of the flame over the head and then pull it away. The threadlock will begin to break down and smoke. Once you see the smoke begin to rise, use a screwdriver to break the screw loose. It should begin to move fairly easily. If not, reapply heat to smoke point and repeat. It should break free. Good luck! Randy

I heard a good joke that seemed associated with this thread- "What is the difference between a Pistolsmith and a Pizza?" A pizza will feed a family of four. Me? I met Bruce Gray, Dan Ruff and Kelly Jones up in the S.F. bay area and admired the work they did. Went to school to become an engineer and always loved handguns. Started working on friends guns and local LE guns for food money while in school. Fortune smiled upon me and more people needed work done. I think if you have a passion for something and the willingness to pursue it you will succeed. A whole lot of tofu was killed in my formative years...

Figure I better chime in here in regards to revolvers. This is a pretty complex issue. If it were a simple linear motion, we could distill it down to F= ma. In the S&W revolver's case you need to look at whether it is the old style hammer nose set up or the newer frame based firing pin system as to the potential benefits of lightening the hammer. For a NEW DA Smith revolver, lightening the hammer has certain advantages above and beyond lock time. Inertia is a b**ch. A body at rest will tend to stay at rest until acted upon by another force. In the case of a heavy target hammer falling, it will take a longer time for that hammer to reach a minimum terminal velocity necessary to ignite a Federal primer. So the threshold mainspring force as measured at the hammer face has been say 2.0 lbs for reliable ignition. Now, the necessary spring force required using my hammer is 1lb 13 oz. So a net reduction of 3 oz. of force is achieved on a conservative estimate. Depending on the gun, as little as 1 lb 9.0 oz has been reliable. End result is that less mainspring tension is required to achieve the goal of reliable ignition. One test revolver measures a trigger pull of 2 lb 13 oz double action. If there is no advantage to a lighter hammer, this should be doable with a Target wide spur hammer. Another advantage of a lightened hammer is recognized in the pull of the trigger. The greater the mass of the hammer, the more energy is required of your trigger finger to get it to move rearwards. The greater the mass, the greater the inertia- can't get away from that. * an important note- it's not only removing the metal, but where you remove the metal that is important. In regards to the newer Smith revolver you really need to look at the types of collisions between the hammer and firing pin, and then again between the firing pin and the primer. Energy is conserved and as a result, so is momentum between the colliding parts. BUT one type of collision imparts TWICE the momentum of the collision found in the older hammer nose firing pin system. It all boils down to - yes, a lightened hammer in a Smith makes a difference in the quality of a trigger job. Ask Jerry Miculek, Jason Pettit, Vic Pickett or John Bagakis what they think about the skeletonized hammer. These are the guys who know what works. ~Randy

Greetings, The cylinder will float fore and aft with the cylinder open so .022 is fine. I'm assuming that the gun has the firing pin on the hammer? And that the "bump is a circular protrusion wit a couple of vertical shoulders cut into it? If so the frame stud can be replaced and a new one fitted. If the ejector rod was pounded severely, the crane may be out of alignment as well. This can exacerbate the problem. Sometimes realignment of the crane/yoke will eliminate the cylinder slip all by itself(assuming the frame stud shoulder that stops the cylinder hasn't been peened over excessively). In any event, the replacement of the frame stud on the older guns is relatively simple. The newer versions with the stop milled integral with the frame, then TIG welding is in order. Have the gun checked out by friendly neighborhood revolversmith. ~Randy

You can also shoot .45 auto rim thru the 625. it's sort of like a short, fat version of a 45 long colt.

Here's my SWAG: The pressures in the GAP brass are higher than for the same PF in .45 acp. The other issue is the headspacing. With the GAP brass, you are headspacing off the moonclip rather than the cylinder itself. This can cause a myriad of problems from firing pin bushing erosion, erratic ignition, swelling in the web of the case as well as sticky extraction. The Ti chambers are not as smooth as the steel counterparts and can be lightly polished. Care must be taken so as not to wear thru the Melonite surface conversion. A light polish using a felt bob and jeweler's rouge can be helpful. The 646 in .40 S&W had similar problems running major PF if I recall. The working pressures for 45acp at a 168 PF (230 gr. fmj) are substantially less and show no evidence of sticky extraction in my frankengun. Sorry, this is the limit of my experience with the GAP brass...

I happen to know that Randy has a bottom feeder or 3. Yes, I own them...but I don't take them out in public.

Hop, Bummers on the tendonitis, but glad you will still be shooting. I may be overstepping my bounds in speaking on behalf of the Central Coast Wheelgunners, but we hope your recovery is swift and complete. Once a wheelgunner, always a wheelgunner even if you are caught holding a bottomfeeder Merriest of Christmas' to you and yours, Randy

Hi guys, Website is sorely in need of update. You can contact me via email and I'll get a hammer to you. Randy

Thanks Mike.

Greetings, The PC625 has a forged hammer. You can(dare I say it?) cut off the spur and Dremel the back of the hammer to match the contour of the frame - this will lighten the hammer by a good 30% which will do a lot in conjunction with balancing out the rebound slide spring and mainspring forces. The trigger work is pretty well outlined in Jerry's video and there are a variety of spring kits available( hopefully in Europe too). ~Randy

I suspect that as more Ti cylinders get used by IDPA, IPSC/USPSA and ICORE shooters more data will be available from sources other than myself(thanks Chris). I will be bringing the 6.5" proto-Frankengun to the SHOT Show.

Wow, Deja vu! I could swear I've seen that gun before!

Since it's Chinese food, he'll be hungry a half hour later...

Mike, You are a mean, mean man! Make sure you have a tofu sandwich to share with him- he likes the tofu...

Now I just need some cool artwork...

I will definitely let you know when and all the gory details. Randy