Scout454

Chills, If God came down and explained it to you it wouldn't be enough. No less than six people, including the match director and the range master have attempted to explain it to you and you still don't understand. Nothing I, Jeff, Kurt or anyone else says will be sufficient. Why don't you pick one or the other, shoot it and if you made a mistake, shoot the other division next year. This is of course if you get in the match. If registration is anything like Benning over 1,000 people will be hitting an execute key within .015 seconds on the 15th.

Yes. And I've been shooting 3 Gun since 1984. Unless you ant to count Vietnam which would make it 1966.

If you have shot enough USPSA or IDPA matches to be classified (keeping in mind that the actual classifications have little or nothing to do with 3 Gun), can be safe handling three weapons - possibly at the same time and you have to talk to friends and fellow shooters about how to shoot a reasonably complicated field course, you're an Amateur. There's no stigma attached to shooting Amateur. Everybody has to start somewhere and shooting Pro at a major match for a prize table is stupid. Shoot the match, learn, have a good time. It's a game. If you've been shooting practical shooting matches of some sort - including a few 3 Gun matches - for at least a year, feel comfortable with 3 guns and you can read the average field course without saying "oh shite, I screwed that up" after most stages then shoot Pro. If you fit in this loosely defined definition of Pro and still shoot Amateur then shame on you. You will stay where you are and never progress. For you guys who usually finish at or near the top in pistol matches but shoot little 3 Gun, shoot Pro. You already know how to shoot, handle a gun safely and read a stage. The rest is just practice. One more thing. Drop the debate and the whining about Divisions in Amateur. It is not going to happen no matter how much pleading you or anyone else does. If you want to shoot a Pro-Am with Open, Tac-Optics, Tac-Irons, Heavy Metal, slings and arrows, Pick a date, spend a year putting the match together, listen to everybody of a forum bitch because something was not done - before the match even started - and have your match. Do to the dramatic increase of participation in 3 Gun, I'm sure it'll fill and everybody will come.

+1,000 !!! The more divisions, the more you dilute the talent and the prize pool. There is no reason why you can't mix tac irons and tac optics. I will guarantee you that the top 5 will be mixed optics and irons and it wouldn't surprise me to see an irons shooter take overall. Personally, I'd just as soon Jeff went back to tac only. I sincerely doubt that there are any serious open shooters who couldn't put a tactical rig together for the match, practice with it and be competitive.

Teemch5 The last place in the world to gain experience as an RO is at a major match. And just as importantly, the match you are referring to is probably not a USPSA match so their rules and scoring will be very different. Start by working local matches - both USPSA and outlaw 3 Gun and learn the game. Spend at least two years working smaller matches and then volunteer to work a major match. You will do yourselves and the competitors a great favor.

He took them all one for one too, didn't he.

If she really loved you she'd want you to go!

Space, as Jeff said yesterday: The Pros and the Ams will be - for the most part - shooting entirely different stages and effectively, different matches. Your wife would be on a different squad and even if a particular stage was shot by both the Pros and The Ams, they would shoot at different times. Otherwise, we'd never get 500 people through a 3 day match.

That's what we had before - a hosefest. Nobody had to try to be accurate and no one did. That has - thankfully - changed with "Horner" scoring and most of the large matches are using it. As far as I'm concerned - and my matches reflect this - some of the penalties are still too lenient. 5 points for a no shoot isn't nearly enough. Hitting a no shoot should be a minimum of 15 seconds and I'd sooner see 30. Making a 400 yard shot a 10 point penalty simply means that you fire one shot and go for the fastest time and all that does is turn the match into a running event - cross country with guns. Having trouble with flying clays? Shoot 5 stand and learn how to hit them - or take the penalty. I'd like to see some of the handgun targets at 40 and 50 yards - IPSC used to do that too. I'm sure you can find local matches that encourage hoser stages - USPSA used to be like that and maybe they still are - but as long as we have "Outlaw" matches I sincerely hope they make you shoot - not just pull a trigger.

And if the miss is a 30 second penalty? What then?

Yes they are. Keep in mind that they must have eye and ear protection and they must follow the instructions of the range officials.

We've used clays and steel at Ft Benning for the past 7 years and generally, you'll find clays used if you are shooting into the side berms and steel when when you are shooting into the back berms. This is not etched in stone and as I said "generally" is the best way to describe it. You will definitely see clays down range and you might see steel to the side. Steel can become a ricochet issue and is used on the side less often.

They look suspiciously like walls - with ports or windows at various heights.

Agreed for most of what we shoot Trapr but I shoot some matches that let you load it up. With a flush tube and a 24" barrel, I'm good for 12 rounds - 10 with the 21". For Benning, I put a plug in the tube and I still get an easy 8 in the tube (it'll almost hold 9) and the slack makes it easier with my screwed up hands.

I was able to do it with my M2 with out bolt mods. I have to fenagle around but I can if I work at it put 10 rounds in an 8 round tube gun. Jamie Hollar when we see each other and I'll show you where to make a simple cut (you can do it with a Dremel) and it'll ghost load slicker than snot on a door knob!

You know Trapr, the other part of that is some M1's and all M2's can't be ghost loaded unless the bolt is modified.

Alan Why should a Benelli shooter have to: "Pick up empty chamber Benelli and pull trigger. Round pop's out of mag tube onto carrier/lifter. Rack slide/bolt and get busy.", when all a Remington, FN or XS2 shooter has to do is rack the bolt and get busy? It's an extra step, it takes extra time, it is an unfair advantage. And, most importantly, there is absolutely nothing in the rules that says you can not drop a shell on the carrier in a Benelli. Dropping a shell on the carrier is NOT ghost loading. I would also like to point out that I have been doing this for over 20 years and that has always been the case. As to your question: "Im the R.O. on a shotgun stage. Shooter comes to the line preloaded from the preload table with 1 on the carrier/lifter. I give LAMR. Shooter pulls bolt back 2/3's and drops 1 in the chamber. Whats the call? Did the shooter ghost load the one on the carrier/lifter or hit the release to put it there? As an R.O. I dont think I could tell without going through some drawn out test on the line." If it's a 7 shot gun (M1, M2 or M4 with an 18 1/2" barrel and a tube flush to the muzzle (very easy to tell if you've done this for a while), I'd just watch and make sure the shooter was safe. In the case of an M1 or an M2 with an extended tube, (an 8 shot tube for a 21" barrel would be flush with the muzzle) the minute the bolt went forward I'd call the RM and have the shooter moved to open. Now, for a change of subject (simply because this came up recently) - As an RO, how do you handle a revolver on an empty chamber start? Note: I said empty chamber, not empty gun.

The way I read it, the physical act of ghost loading is forbidden - only if it will allow you to load more than 8 rounds - otherwise, the rules screw every Benelli shooter and give a distinct advantage to every shooter using a Remington, Winchester or and FN and I sincerely doubt that is the AMU's intention.

Thanks Jeff Gose, as Benelli2 says, when ghost loading you will place an additional round on the carrier when loading the chamber. It has nothing to do with dropping a round on the carrier while the chamber is empty and the bolt is down. Remington 1100's do this automatically. With a loaded tube and an empty chamber on an 1100, all you have to do is rack the bolt. On a Benelli, if the bolt is down and the tube is full **BUT** there is no round on the carrier, you would have to first: release a round from the magazine tube onto the carrier and second: rack the bolt. An extra step and I doubt that anyone - certainly not your average shooter - can get a first shot off as fast with a Benelli as they can with an 1100 under those conditions.

For the stages where you dont start with a round chambered, are you allowed to do 7 in the tube and one on the carrier? I've worked this match as an RO for the past 7 years, so.... Tactical Shotguns may hold a maximum of 8 rounds in the tube. For an empty chamber start, Benelli's have always been allowed to start with one on the carrier (otherwise, Remington 1100's would have an unfair advantage). Since some of you have shotguns with 7 round tubes, we have permitted starting with 7 in the tube and one on the carrier. An 8 round tube will essentially start the same way, there will be 7 in the tube and one on the carrier. If you are caught with an 8 round tube and one on the carrier in a loaded chamber start (i.e., 8 plus 1 plus 1 for a total of 10) you will be moved to Open. And, if you are caught with 8 in the tube and one on the carrier (total 9) in an empty chamber start, you're moving to Open. Answer your question gose?

For the past 6 years they've served lunch at the range.

Sorry to ask again... can anyone clarify this for me?? Am I better off with a drop leg holster (if I can use one), to free up room on the belt, or just stick with my Bladetech DOH kydex belt rig? Drop leg holsters are legal. I strongly suggest that you do NOT wear a floppy nylon holster with limited or no retention. If the handgun falls out, you go home. Stick with Blade Tech, Safariland (military or LEO), Blackhawk or similar. I've used Blade Tech Dropped and offset (starting in the 90's) and the Blackhawk Level 2 Serpa (for the past 4 years) with absolutely no problems at all.

Here here!!!!!

There is no reason not to use shotguns. They were certainly available and used to good effect by the Marines and no doubt the Army used them too.

Dean - Is this Sunday only or both days?