Forrest Halley

I would be carrying those four rounds and banking on cleaning the stage. If I screw up along the way...I should be okay with the time saved by carrying the rounds until the point of failure. What I failed to mention is that I'd be using the extra rounds to make up the time with the Bravos and Charlies for sure and any called Deltas in USPSA.

I'm probably not going to miss paper out to thirty yards. I am probably going to have Bravos, Charlies, and Deltas. Maybe some NSMs also. The extra rounds come into play at the advanced level also. Steel sounds great too until it becomes gunshots without dings and no shooter, regardless of skill level, is going to consciously leave steel standing to the tune of five seconds a pop. Probably a good thing I've got moonclips with 8 rounds in them instead of six.

Revowood: The standing reload is always going to force a reload on the move if the shooter is a savvy one. The definition that we are trying to find here is just how many spare rounds does the six shooter need to have to keep things neutral. The makeups on steel do allow a more aggressive approach. Does this factor into neutrality? I think the reloads become the biggest concern with neutrality in that there is an automatic time advantage if the round count falls 7-8(6-8 on steel), 13-16(12-16), or 18+ if the COF is very fluid. Taking a 32 round field course, that's 5x3secs for the average man on a good day vs 3x3secs with the eight shot on reloading alone. Six seconds is nice. Therefore having extra rounds on board makes for a more equal approach, but to make the mandatory is tantamount to saying six at a time required.... bdpaz: I think six four shot arrays would be the best way to run 24 rounds. Both guns are driven stark raving mad from the number of reloads. Just kidding, that 24 number is a clear advantage to the eight shot unless it is broken up in such a way that the six shooter can make up time shooting in and out of a position. I feel like you have a better understanding of the fact that 6 and 8 cannot be equal in a fluid stage. I am stubbornly trying to find ways to make it possible for the six to beat the eight.

After a careful reading of the rulebook...six shot neutrality is mentioned but not defined. Let slip the wild goose and commence the pursuit! I love "interpretations" and "clarifications"...fond memories! Now all we need is a concrete definition of six shot neutral...so we can properly fetter them evil eight shots!*rolls eyes*

Okay I'm trying to go with something that is a neutral situation for both cylinder capacity. The guy from ICORE says that six shot neutral ISN'T specifically requiring no more than six shots prior to reloading, so I feel like I'm on the right track here. I'm asking the shooter to engage targets in such a manner to keep the reloads even and ensuring that each shooter has spare rounds onboard to make up misses. What have I missed? I think this is a great discussion about such a clearly misunderstood part of ICORE stage planning.

If you think that having additional shots available, particularly with steel, does not favor the 8 shot gun then we're at the agree to disagree point. I don't feel that designing a stage so that the number of reloads is equal IF you shoot the minimum number of shots equates to 6 shot neutral.We aren't at that point. I am well aware of the advantage of having the extra rounds on steel where you either eat an extra reload or take a miss. So how many makeups do you have to have to negate the advantage? A four shot array with two steel or a nine shot array with three paper and three steel? Maybe two paper and five steel? Where does it wash even for you? Above ten rounds required you never get two spares again in the same reload. So we're giving up 2-4 seconds to make up the miss to come out 2 seconds ahead of or even with taking the miss.So how does 1-5, 9-11, 17 sound then? Neutral? I believe that revolver shooters had to man up in the six shot days facing off eight shot arrays and marksmanship was an assumed baseline above C class. So while I understand the value of the extra shots, I still try like the devil to go one for one. I feel like misses are self perpetuating and can eat through any number of makeup shots.

I don't think making the stages six shot neutral is futile and it can be done by controlling the array numbers and placing barricades or barriers to establish clear engagement positions. A clever stage designer...can make this happen. You do have to be a bit of a gamer to see the angles and control them as you intend the stage to be shot without having to write it down in stone like idpa. 1-6, 9-12, 17-18 from any position and we are all equal 6 vs. 8. In fact if you want to make some visual barriers you can get higher round counts on the stages and offset the 8 shot by allowing the 6 shot a chance to reload on the way to the next array. For example: Shoot 6 on paper from point A and move to point B where another 12 shots are required and then on to point C where 9 shots are required. No I can't help you with the fact that the 8 shot carries more makeups, but I can set it up to keep the reloading even. He leaves with two from the first position if clean and four from the second, but it is no advantage as he must reload for the five or the one if he reloads on the way in. Thinking like this you can keep them even all day and enjoy high round counts. Just be careful not to make any targets available from more than one shooting position or if you must, make it so the extra foot work negates the advantage and always keep the angles such that visiting each position is necessary.

I'd shoot single action six with reloads on the clock if it would drum up interest in my local area to shoot ICORE. Allowing it to be recognized is a great step for letting the six shot moonclip guns have a place to play/hide. Snubby should also be a celebrated category as anyone dedicated enough to shoot one well deserves a nod. Idpa still has not addressed the elephant in the room with the 8 shot revolvers just loading eight and dumping two. They have gotten a lot of guns back in play with the reduction of ESR PF. I feel like ICORE is doing just fine with its PF and needs no change there. I agree with the suggestion to lay out some entries on the prize tables for other disciplines revolver division shooters. Who knows that may be all it takes to get someone to commit to shooting a match they previously had not considered. I know when I first got into revolver shooting, I would have shot golfballs on the moon with my revo if somebody had suggested it. I could not get enough trigger time. Then rules and life slowed me down. All the better for ICORE since it is so very accepting of the various weights and barrel lengths.

There is some way to design the stages where the reloads for the six are eaten up in travel or break down the stage into 6,9 and 17 shot arrays. To have the shooters taking shots moving into and out of the arrays given the scoring of ICORE increases the difficulty a little, but also brings back the magic of the talented shooter putting on a clinic of smooth is fast. The newer shooters will see this and emulate it raising the skill level of all involved. I feel like the biggest attractant ICORE has is good shooters talking the game to the new shooters as everyone cheers their squadmates on through the highs and lows. If we can show that the revolver can be an awesome shooting tool and create an atmosphere of learning and sharp competition then the following should improve. Without the collective support in the squads the new folks won't survive the first few falters. No need for big egos in revo.

Six shot neutral limits stages pretty well. You've got the 1-6 window, the 9-12 window and the 17-18 shot window. Beyond that the reloads become a factor...duh for some of us...not so much for others.

I misread what you said initially. I apologize for taking you out of context. I was thinking there was deliberate intent to dominate an idpa match with a limited gun, which is a farsical endeavor in my eyes. Hence the world champion of yelling into a bucket. Master of something insignificant. I disagree with any limitations on magazine capacity because who really cares who wins NFC anyway? If someone keeps bringing an open gun and a thirty round magazine...stop allowing them to shoot...for the sake of the aspirin supply. As long as the folks aren't being offensive it shouldn't matter. However I don't think anyone should ever be prohibited from exercising their double stack carry gun to its full potential. Other than not having a USPSA match nearby the reason I see for shooting idpa with that kind of equipment is to have a fun day off from training on open targets at feel good distances.

Ridiculous statement of the day:"If I take my limited gun and dominate NFC." Congratulations you are the world champion of yelling into a bucket. It's intended to allow folks to shoot. When you start fooling around with the shooting opportunity because it isn't true to the discipline you sound like much less than a wholesome ambassador to this or any particular discipline.

NFC is bogus in restricting the capacity to ten rounds. If someone wants to bring their gun that doesn't "belong" in an approved division why castrate it when they are paying to have fun just like everyone else? It's not right to act as though you are being wholly inconvenienced by someone's presence at the match that is not drinking the Koolaid and running a approved gun and still take their money. I find it funny that good competition firearms are called NFC. Seems like it should be the other way round..no? It's the same arms race they tried to prevent in a different shaped box. Make everybody shoot from under an untucked button down shirt out of an IWB holster. Then you have yourself a concealed carry handgun match that's NFC.

Thanks Boss hoss. You just saved me 80$.

So now that the problem has been clearly identified, (Getting the average shooter halfway serious about revolver shooting...) how do we fix it? For starters I believe the manufacturers should start shipping revolvers with some of these accessories (3-4 Comp 2-3's or ten moonclips) and some literature on competitions. There doesn't seem to be any revolver sold currently that is truly as match ready as an XDm is straight out of the box. This would really allow people to see a revolver as something other than a six or eight shot long reload time proposition. Consider a discounted match fees for the new guys and also for the person bringing them along as they are likely supplying gear and ammo. Encourages referrals... Ensure that squads are set up with experienced competitors to help the new shooters excel. Frustration is a roadblock to enjoyment of shooting.

Mike, You can't ignore the fact that revolver equipment is a bit of a hesitation for new shooters. You have a bunch of revolvers and you have the gear. You're looking at folks who are getting a second gun just to get into ICORE. They don't have big blue machines to make ammo. They don't have Spackle buckets filled with .38 brass. It takes money for a noob to get a revolver competition worthy. It took me a bit of time and money spent to feel comfortable diving under the side plate and making things smooth. It's hard for someone to fall in love with a trade in Model 10 and dump money into the ugly duckling to turn it into a swan. The revolvers don't come with Comp3's and HKS is generally the only option available at the point of purchase. The 8 shot change has had a bigger effect on the division than you'll ever admit. It was definitely a game changer. With 33% more ammunition under the hammer after every reload the standing reloads are gone and the six shooters have fallen off the cutting edge. No GM, M, or A shot major at the national. You should still hold your own with a six shot, but you're not going to give up those extra rounds. I'm late to get on the eight shot bus, but I saw the advantage on my first cylinder when two live rounds popped out at reload time. I can't see a reason to shoot major anymore unless a six shot neutral national comes along. On the plus side I can load one load for everything from three gun to revolver games. I'll venture to guess that the rule change added very few new shooters to the sport, but may have swelled the numbers with division crossover shooters. The 8 shots are pretty expensive to purchase. My 929 was expensive in comparison to an M&P but less expensive than my single stack 10mm 1911. This leads me to guess that the eight shot folks are already competitive shooters.

You're forgetting the gaming license you'd probably need to take bets... How much match running experience do you have? 10-12 stages run well with great and efficient staff will take 8-10 hours for 50 shooters. One hundred shooters is going to take a while. I figured 8h15m of shooting time for 100 shooters averaging thirty seconds per stage over ten stages without setup, take down or reset time factored in. I figure that at 2.5 hours for setting and breaking down. I figure reset and scoring to be 4 to 6 hours depending on the number of squads based on 100 reset/scorings over ten stages and each reset taking two minutes then dividing by the number of squads you have. I figure 5 squads will reset the fastest assuming everyone is working diligently and taking away the two recent shooters that shot the stage and the two that are prepping to shoot. I didn't figure in time to reconfigure any bays pulling double duty. Don't even think about doing multiple strings of fire on a stage. It also takes up a lot of space. Likely will take up all of the available shooting space at a facility to have stages worth shooting. Like it has already been said the only way you get to do that is by having your own range. The club BOD will likely receive too many complaints from members not involved in your matches being denied the use of the facility during the weekend.

Icore is dead in VA for now. There just aren't enough revolver shooters with any great skill and dedication here to mentor the less skilled guys. I'm guilty of the dedication failure. Maybe a could get it back again. I am going to pursue revolver shooting seriously again with my new 9mm widget. Maybe some folks will turn out for uspsa and from that we can get the icore back again.

You can shoot too many A's...when targets are available from multiple positions. You are spot on with the seven yards and in statement about sights. I have been downright amused what sight pictures have come up 2 Alpha. It's even easier in ID....?

They have backtracked on the locks -- you can now disable them. Well now I have a different problem. My barrel is too long and the cylinder holds too many rounds. I refuse to load only six. I would never do it in real life unless I only had six rounds left and that'd be a pretty odd occurrence seeing as my moonclips would have been all loaded at the ammo depot back at home. There are the "usual" reasons - "more realistic", "don't need no fancy race gun"... (<- Sarcasm) but I will tell you why it appeals to me.Lower round count - The average 6 or 7 stage match is less than 130 rounds. Less equipment - Only 3 mags, one mag holder, one multiuse belt, one holster, and one fancy fishing vest. No Texas Star - Kidding (mostly). I shoot USPSA with some regularity. I admit shooting SS makes my life harder but I need minimally 5 mags on my person and I get very frustrated at stages with min round counts in the mid 30s. I know I could shoot Limited and my main two gripes would go away. ?This guy is pretty much on point. I'd tell him to quit whining and try shooting revolver division, but now we have eight rounds. Oh well, quit whining you have 8+1.? I understand the mag carrier placement issue. I am excited folks are getting out to shoot any way that they can and their choice of game doesn't concern me. I do believe they are all games and you should pursue the one that gives you the greater joy, gunbelt or fishing vest included.

I cut half of a safariland custom fit off with a dremel. It's plenty fast and I just wrap a tarp bungee around the gun before and after the COF.

Yes that is exactly what magnum primers in my 40 looked like

Looks like magnum primers through a .40...

I'm not hating on you there malarkey. I am trying to save you the headache of arguing with someone who is inherently less interested in making sense than you are... They didn't listen about the locks in Smith revos and I made a very reasonable presentation as to how it was not to be used on a loaded weapon. Robert Ray gave me a bumbling response and I realized that I was wrong to try and debate with him. I got out of the mud and went for a shower and change of clothes. That is likely the same remedy for your condition.

I feel your frustrations, but I don't think it's worth doing anything overt during a match. Slight difference between grinding a mag under foot coming into a shooting position whilst airgunning and ripping it off a belt. Made for a good laugh though, thank you!