ck1

I did a little reading (well, more like kind of a lot) this morning on CZ's and their inertial firing pin (including some older benos threads that mirror this one). Turns out that do to the CZ's inertial firing pin design the hammer being decocked and fully-down, resting against the back of the firing pin, is not really that dangerous as it may seem and definitely, without a doubt more safe then the hammer resting at half-cock (in a non-FPB Shadow's case anyway). Like Joe4d said, an inertial firing pin is shorter than the channel in which it resides and do to the shorter length and firing pin spring does not protrude through the breach-face... the hammer sitting there has no real bearing on safety either way as any strike with enough force or a drop from a reasonably high height to actually cause the the firing pin to move forward fast enough will cause the gun to discharge only by overcoming the strength of the firing pin spring, the hammer resting against the back of the firing pin compresses the firing spring as far as it can and is allowed to already, therefore relinquishing any added leverage it would have to add momentum-wise. Seems CZ's gunsmith either needs to educate himself more thoroughly on how inertial firing pins work, or probably more likely, without knowing the user's skill level, just didn't think it was ok to tell a user that it's perfectly safe to manually decock a non-FPB-equipped pistol and risk liability in the event of a ND.

Well, I think you do have a valid point... I just hope USPSA's answer doesn't make us all cringe. That said, I don't totally agree with what you were told by the CZ gunsmith, as I've heard the exact opposite from another experienced gunsmith before from the point of view saying hammer down on the firing pin being considered less safe is in a way putting far too much faith in a shallow half-cock notch that was intended to catch a hammer falling from full-cock do to a sear/hammer failure, never to hold a hammer immobile (as in the case of a drop) and ignores the physics of how an inertial firing pin functions... so it's sort of subjective to how one looks at a given scenario for a potential mishap to occur, while holstered, or in superficial handling, it's maybe indeed a little safer to have the hammer not resting on the firing pin just in-case it were to take a blow square on the back of the hammer, but in contrast, if the pistol was to be dropped the hammer resting at half-cock would likely add to the potential danger as the hammer would not only have gravity but a fait amount of spring pre-load for some added drama... At any rate, decocking a pistol manually is serious business whether to half-cock or to full rest, and anything less than adequate attention will result in a bad day... maybe that's as it should be, it'd be ok with Darwin .

Be careful what you ask for. You might just get the Shadow removed from the production list. The rules for USPSA production were around before CZ decided to remove the firing pin block. If having the hammer in the fully decocked position is unsafe, they should have installed a de-cocker on the gun. Considering the gun is loaded in the holster for about 10 seconds per stage, and most of that time is spent standing still, I'm not too worried about the chance of an AD because the hammer is fully decocked. I agree, pushing this isn't really necessary and could just make the situation worse on Shadow owners, I don't think any of us really care about whether or not the first shot happens from all the way down vs. half-cock enough to cause a fuss. If you're not comfortable with starting by manually decocking to hammer all the way down CZ makes many guns with decockers and there's lots of other platforms to run. Besides, your 75B has a FPB, so as long as you let go of the trigger before you set the hammer down you've got nothing to worry about.

I've had a Trojan and a Wilson CQB and while both were great guns having recently shot a friends tricked out RIA Tactical I wouldn't hesitate to pick one up at around $400 bucks. IMHO one of the most fun parts about 1911's is how relatively easily and cheaply you can customize them to your own personal taste, aside from trigger work, most other upgrades are accomplished fairly easily with some help from YouTube, Google, and by leaning on more experienced 1911 owners/shooters if you're not completely unmechanically inclined (meaning you can follow some directions and use a file and some sandpaper). If you're set on a Bo-Mar-type adjustable rear sight, it's a different story and I'd say just grab yourself a Spartan (or maybe an RIA Match at $100 or so cheaper), but if not an RIA Tactical is a good base gun to build on. My buddy's has an SVI ITS trigger, EGW/STI fire control, and a set of kick-ass Warren/Sevigny 1911 sights on it for about the same or less than what a Spartan costs just through some looking around for the best prices and a little DIY elbow-grease, picking exactly the stuff he was after.

Mike.

I've got a Shadow Custom with the Angus trigger job. I've lowered the hammer hundreds if not thousands of times without incident. To be honest, I can't see where the trigger job has anything to do with it. I grab the hammer with my support hand thumb and index finger. Only after I have a firm grip on the hammer, do I put my finger in the trigger guard and pull the trigger. Then I gently lower the hammer. +1, same gun, same technique here.

True, and I have personally seen this exact thing happen at a local match. Not necessarily, that's kind of open-ended... you could go further with that and eventually add that up to: "if you spend time around guns, sooner or later you're going to get shot..." if you wanted to, saying it could happen doesn't make it so. My take is that a couple different things are being discussed here: ( A ) is lowering the hammer to half-cock (rather than lowering all the way down) allowed and legal in USPSA Production, and ( B ), is one way maybe more safe than the other (lowering to half-cock vs. all the way down), technically-speaking. Think all of us know firearms can be dangerous when handled poorly/irresponsibly no matter what, whether lowering a hammer or doing anything else, and what one thinks is safer over what is less-safe, subjectively-speaking, could go on forever and ever (as an example: I've met plenty of guys who think Glocks are unsafe since they don't have a manual safety-lever, doesn't mean they're correct, etc., etc.).

I start with the hammer all the way down, if Amidon days it's ok to start at half-cock then that's cool with me, but I agree it makes no sense as the rule reads pretty clear and there really needs to be a rule-clarification specifically addressing the issue made in order to take any subjectivity out of the equation... Besides, without a copy of that email on hand I'd pretty much bet on getting hassled if trying to start at half-cock at most matches. Plus, it's worth mentioning that whether or not half-cock is actually any safer with a non-FPB equipped Shadow is debatable anyways, as giving the hammer some room to pick up some momentum in the event of a drop doesn't strike me as any more of a "safe-mode" than if the hammer is all the way down, and in some ways trying to find half-cock while holding the hammer and with the trigger pulled could be more dangerous and lead to an ND/ AD being MORE likely as down is down, but finding half-cock leaves the possibility of missing it by mistake and letting the hammer snap against the back of the FPB, getting quite a scare or worse... it's an inertial firing pin design so even with the hammer resting on the back of the firing pin the end of the firing pin doesn't protrude through the breach-face. Think I'm on the fence as to which option is more safe, maybe leaning towards the hammer resting all the way down as being safer...

I'd say the Shadow triggers are on average maybe twice as good as the 75B triggers, and compared to even the best 75B's there is still a significant difference (for the better) with a Shadow. Shadow triggers, saying in SA, once you are finished with the take-up and get to where you feel resistance there's just a crisp break, no pre-travel, no creep whatsoever, the same kind of clean break you get with a nice 1911, DA is just smooth. Also, with no firing pin block, a Shadow's trigger reset is less than half that of a B-model CZ, nearly as short as a 1911. In comparison, 75B's tend to have a fair amount of creep and felt pre-travel in their triggers even after they're well worn-in, with many CZ's there's the tendency for hammer-camming to take place, you can feel it and many times see it as you can watch the hammer move backwards slightly before the trigger breaks, a Shadow's trigger has none of these undesirable traits... Some 75B's have great triggers, IMO they're usually better than a Sig's, or a Beretta's, or other DA/SA guns out there, that said, there's a reason so many of us pony up the extra loot for the Shadows without putting up too much of a fight ... As far as travel, since it's DA/SA there is take-up, but my gun and the other Shadows I've owned or shot have very little or no overtravel, so say maybe an 1/8"-1/4" to the break post-take-up with about a 1/4" reset, it's pretty short, even if you're used to a real nice 1911 trigger they're still pretty impressive.

Glad this worked out for you, honestly it's what I would've expected from STI in the first place, they did the right thing and while it may have cost them a little now, how they handled your issue makes it more likely that I or maybe some others will buy their products and support them in the future, it's good kharma and it means a lot. I know the issue could've been the PMC ammo and may have had nothing to do with STI, but IMO it's a stretch for any gun manufacturer to put the burden of fighting that battle on their customer when he or she when shooting factory stuff is pretty much playing it about as close as can be expected to the letter of what most gun warrantys ask owners to do. Thumbs up for STI after all... (that said, this thread could've been an STI-love-fest from the start if they'd just stepped up to the plate when it first happened....)

I weighed mine the other day day and with the VZ grips and a Mecgar mag I was right at 39oz's. It does need to be cleaned though. Wow, I know CZ frames have some variance but well over an ounce, or really closer to two, seems like too much... think my buddies scale may be not to be trusted. I'm not real worried about mine making it under 39ozs with the VZ grips and a 19rd mag, but I'm going to check it just to be safe , good to know, thanks.

kriskexplorer, forgot to mention, I've had and really like those "Thick" (they're actually pretty darn thin) Aggresive Checker grips too, but they seem to be serially out-of-stock lately, the VZ's are the closest ones to those in thickness and grippyness, they don't look like it in pics but the G10 checkering is really sharp and sticks A LOT better than grip-tape and just as much as the aluminum checkering, I've actually come around to liking them better FWIW...

Yeah, I did try that, that's what led me to swapping out the lower/extended 75SA/Shadow safeties for the higher-sitting 75/85-type safeties, they only ride about 1/4" higher but makes a huge difference in feel, since I have larger hands and longish thumbs it's just as comfortable for me and allows me to use both of the thinner panels with plenty of real estate for my support-hand, combined with the thinner grips I get so much meat on the gun it's just awesome, I can hold onto it like it's in a vise. Definitely worth a try for some guys but I know it's not for everybody as I've got a friend who's going to be picking one up soon and for him and his hands he likes it much better with the extended safeties as they come from Angus and Co.

The weight they list for the 75 Shadows is conservative, expect them to be an ounce or two under 39ozs from what I've seen. You can change grips without fear of pushing it over the limit, the factory rubber ones are the heaviest and even with those on it mine weighed in at around 37ozs and change with a empty 19rd mag. I have tried them all pretty much (grips), finally settling on the thinner VZ G10 grips (which weigh barely anything) but I also like the plain-jane factory plastic ones too. Everybody's hands (and thumbs) are different, and I found that for me the combination of the thinner VZ grips and then the higher-riding regular 75/85 safeties (to make more room for my support-hand do to the thinness) make my gun fit me like no other, but that's splitting hairs as most of the time a CZ with factory grips feels better to most people than just about any gun out there. Maybe see how the factory grips feel and go from there... As far as improving the trigger further, there are a few things that can push them a little lighter, cheap, easy things too, like stoning/polishing the sides of the hammer or tweaking the trigger-return-springs for less tension (which does in-turn weaken the reset somewhat), beyond that there's experimenting with how many coils you clip off your hammer-spring before you get light-strikes, but that said, they come pretty much GTG for 99% of us even total trigger-snobs, again the listed ratings are pretty conservative, they say 3.5/4.5lbs in SA and 8/9lbs in DA, in reality, delivered they're less/lighter, you can expect around 3lbs in SA and 6.5/7.5lbs in DA without fear of being disappointed.

IMHO the 75 Shadow is better for playing IDPA, just less nonsense. The under-cut under the trigger-guard is almost identical to the SP-01 Shadow's, barely enough difference to even notice side-by-side. The extra $100 over a standard Shadow is worth it, as while you do get 1 less mag, it comes with the CZCustoms competition hammer already installed, which is slightly better than the hammer that comes on the standard SP-01 Shadow and the same as what comes on the $1200 Shadow Customs, most end up upgrading their standard SP-01 Shadow hammers to the CZC competition hammer at some point anyway so even buying another mag for the 75 Shadow it still comes out cheaper if you'll want the best trigger-pull possible, and you won't have to deal with the hassle of experimenting with switching out parts/grips/mags in order to make 39ozs for IDPA. Plus, the shorter dust-cover frame makes for a quicker transitioning gun that aside from being quicker handling otherwise feels about the same as the railed guns.

Well, the new-hotness is the 75 Shadow which I linked you to, it's a Shadow variant with CZ's short-dustcover frame (IDPA considered the original railed-frame SP-01 Shadows to be full-length dust-covers, thus illegal for IDPA unless you lightened them to make weight which was a PITA), they're GTG in IDPA SSP shot DA first-shot and cocked n' locked in ESP, and they also are recently approved for USPSA production. IMHO it's the best gun CZ has ever offered. There are other models that are GTG in IDPA and USPSA (75B's, 85 Combat's) but the Shadows are the top-end guns... Shadows have different hammers that make their triggers head and shoulders above the others and really better than any other DA/SA guns out there, in SA a Shadow trigger is every bit as good as the finest 1911 triggers (no BS) and even their DA pull is pretty awesome, as good as the best revolvers, they also feature no firing-pin-blocks like 70-series 1911's, which means they have a shorter, cleaner trigger pull and a reset half as long as a normal FPB-equipped B-model CZ (which is already half of what you're used to with your P30, so imagine a 1/4 or less then what you're used to, very nearly as short as a 1911), those two things are what make them "Shadows" and what makes them special. I think even a regular proletarian B-model CZ's trigger would be twice as good as a P30's after not too many rounds, but the thing is, once you try a Shadow you'll be green with envy and will end up wanting one (they're that good). They're not cheap, but I have to say that pound-for-pound, dollar-for-dollar they're worth every penny and then some, and I don't think there's a DA/SA gun out there that can really touch them at any price. To put their price-point in perspective, they're still cheaper than many mid-level Sigs yet have triggers that are twice as nice as the pricey top-of-the-line Sig X-5's which cost double what a 75 Shadow does and aren't even legal for most of the gun-games. So, as they say, if you have the means... The thing I think I like most about them is that you can put the same 75 Shadow in the hands of high-dollar boutique 1911-snobs as well as diehard Glock-guys and both will be blown away... They've got the sick trigger and accuracy, but they're also bomb reliable and can be run hard and dirty. In fact, mine replaced an STI 9mm 1911 that I had sunk a lot of money into, and I've noticed that quite a few upper-level amateur ESP shooters are switching to them recently as they do all the same good things a nice 9mm 1911 does, except they aren't moody and you don't end up losing time dealing with malf's or fighting with tuning them all the time like one does with 9mm 1911's. CZ's run like Glocks, but shoot like a nice 1911, while IMO feeling better ergo-wise than both of those. I think you'd only need to dry-fire one once and you'd be convinced, and even after being spoiled with the great grip ergos of a P30 you'd find them just as great feeling in-the-hand, CZ ergos are actually better IMO having had both as the lower bore-axis is immediately a noticeable improvement of the H&K's top-heavy feel (and while not cheap at $70-90 you can put thinner grip panels on the CZ's making them thinner than a 1911 wearing slim-lines if you want). Hate to sound like such a fanboy, but as a guy who's pretty OCD about my pistols and who's had pretty much all of them out there, tuning them to their fullest potential and sometimes losing my shirt trading them off to try something else, the 75 Shadow is the best 9mm I've come across by far, really the best and most fun gun I've ever had period. There's this too: if you were to buy one and were somehow to decide to get rid of it, priced fairly, I'd be surprised if it would last longer than a day, if not mere hours or minutes in the classifieds section of this forum...

There is a 3rd option: Wilson V-grip. I had considered switching to one when I was transitioning to 1911's from a Glock, but decided to go to CZ's before I got a chance to try one, FWIW seemed like a fair option worth looking at.

I sold my Trojan 9mm as I eventually got worn out with trying to get it to run as reliably as I'd hoped it would. Being that I'm not nearly the 1911-aficianado as some guys are, I was happy to go back to CZ's for 9mm and don't really miss it, that said, I'm also sure my Trojan's new owner (who is more of 1911-devotee) is happy too, as while not reliable enough for myself, I got the gun to the point where it ran as good or better than any 9mm 1911 I'd ever come across... that is, until recently, excepting one. recently, I had the chance to shoot a gun where the owner had had the feed ramp recut to more closely match that of say a CZ, or Glock, or "traditional 9mm" at the expense of maybe some case support (ala Glock) vs. the steep 9mm 19111 feed ramp we're all familiar with... ran ridiculously well, even pretty dry, and even with JHP's. Personally, after plenty of experience with 9mm 1911's, there mags, their springs, and their other headaches, after seeing this done, how it performed, and checking it out, I think a shallower, recut feed ramp is the answer to getting 1911's in the shorter OAL 9/40 to run as they should. If I ever put together another one I plan on starting there.

JMHO here, but here's my $0.02: I had a P30 V3 for a little while, and then a P30 LEM that I changed springs on and brought to V1 "light LEM" spec. While they do have one of the best grips on them in all of the gun world, I ended up finding more "cons" than "pros" in the platform as compared to their (usually lower price-point) contemporaries. The things I found that I didn't dig about the design became even more apparent and glaring when running IDPA/USPSA-type drills, enough so that I never did even run one at a match and risk ruining a good Saturday. The things I found that bugged me were: the slide-stop lever; a good thumbs-forward grip pretty much means mags won't be locking back on empty, the mag release; just too different from every other platform and too easy to not activate by either not moving it sufficiently to drop the mag or by slipping off it when going fast, the higher-than-the-norm-these-days bore-axis which is more similar to a Sig or 1911 then to most fast 9's like Glock's, M&P's and CZ's, not many options out there as far as finding sights I liked (I prefer a thinner front-blade than what's out there for them, .090"-.115" depending on rear-notch-width)... and then after all that: there's that trigger. Even the light-LEM leaves a lot to be desired and isn't really very good. I've had the opportunity to shoot a few H&K's with Grey-worked triggers (including a P30) and while they sure were a lot better than any stock H&K, they weren't really even in the same neighborhood as a decent Glock trigger that's been equipped with a lighter connector and seen a 15min polish session, or even close to any M&P that's got an Apex sear or thats had trigger work, honestly, compared to what I've been shooting lately (CZ Shadow which is light-years better trigger-wise than any Glock or M&P and is every bit as good as the best 1911's), they might as well have been on par with a Lochrin or Hi-Point. Sounds harsh, I know, but IMO I'd say the Grey-worked triggers are probably only worth it to the hardcore H&K-guys who are maybe more into the brand-loyalty-thing then into being truly pragmatic or unbiased about just getting the best pistol into their hands out of what can be had. Without trying to be curt about it, and not trying to be overtly condescending, the fact is there are a lot of H&K "operators" out there that are really hung up on the brand being the only thing good enough for them and anything else being something less regardless of pure function, so there will always be a segment of those who'll need guys like Bruce Grey to improve their triggers no matter the cost as H&K stock triggers are pretty bad. My advice would be to pick up a Glock in 9mm, whether a G34 or even a G17, and if you like your P30 hold on to it without sinking any more cash into it. No matter what you spend on the H&K, you're not going to be able to beat what can be done with $30 and 15mins to the Glock platform anyways so why not give it a try... In my experience the Glock (if we're talking Gen3's) is superior to the M&P in durability and the ease at which one can tinker around with without needing anybody's help, and would be my pick as I prefer their triggers to even worked over M&P's, but that said, if Glock's just don't feel right coming from such an ergo-friendly gun as a P30 then a M&P is a great choice. Having said all that and having had all the others mentioned, tuning them to be all they can be, if you're after truly top-of-the-mountain trigger-awesomeness for IDPA, your budget allows it, and you haven't already ruled out an all-steel gun, I have to tell you to give one of these a hard look: http://czcustom.com/cz75shadowsadablk.aspx Hope this helps.

FYI, gave my gun the deluxe treatment yesterday, detail-stripping everything but tge trigger and trigger-bow as it was filthy after seeing about 3k rounds since it's last cleaning (which was just a field-strip quickie and not real thorough).Took almost a whole can of non-chlorinated brake cleaner to completely de-gunk it but now it's good as new. That said, found out the hard way that brake cleaner getting on the red paint that indicates safe/fire is a no-no, didn't lose/erase it or ruin it but it could've been close as the paint started to run pretty good before I caught it and wiped it dry, so if you want to keep your red paint watch out. Now with the above stated, think I'm going to go back to using Hoppes #9 and try to stay on top of cleaning it more regularly, post-brake cleaner the metal was so degreased that it looked like almost too much, like it was overly dry... gave the whole thing a dripping bath of FP-10 to get it back to where I feel confident the metal is sufficiently "moisturized" again. Wondering if anyone knows if there's a better way or if the brake cleaner might be bad for the CZ polycoat..? The brake cleaner/oil slather process has always been fine with my Glocks and once a year on my 1911's, but I didn't really like how dry it seemed to make the CZ... Thanks.

Alright, you guys are making me paranoid, guess I'll back mine out and reinstall using the red stuff before I become a victim ... Though, I'd agree that running without it might be just as good, seems to me the comp hammers take almost all of the unwanted over-travel out of the pull by themselves, think my screw gets maybe 2 and 1/2 turns past not doing anything at all anyway.

I've been fine with blue myself, but if you're worried about it moving on you, there's always red loctite, use that and it isn't going anywhere... If you need to adjust it or remove it for some reason in the future all it will take is a hot soldering iron touching it for maybe 10 seconds. If mine ever moves, that'll be my move. Edited to add: if you like where yours is at already but want extra insurance it'll stay put you can use the green loctite (their penetrating-type for using in after-the-fact applications), usually you'll have to go to an auto parts store to find the green stuff, pretty sure it's on par with the red stuff strength-wise and you'll need heat to loosen it down the road as well. It's great for rear sights that you want to stay put too.

CZ 75 Shadow (newly USPSA-legal short dustcover variant), 11lb recoil spring, 13lb hammer-spring CZ 19rd mags w/ +10% mag springs Dawson Precision .170"T x .90"W black-serrated front sight VZ G10 grips Higher, lower-profile CZ-75/85-style safeties in place of the lower/extended CZ-75SA/Shadow-style safeties Production-legal frontstrap checkering (skateboard tape). Cz-85 "original profile" trigger Blade-Tech DOH holster (minus the DO part), Blade-Tech kydex double mag pouch, 2 tacticalkydex single mag pouches. 5.11 1.75" Casual leather belt or Blackhawk 1.75" Operator's belt. Cheap factory FMJ, usually 115gr and usually from Wallymart (WWB, Federal Champion, UMC, etc.) - I've ran Glock's, M&P's, and STI's, the CZ works the best for me and I wouldn't trade my Shadow for one of each of them. An SA trigger as good as the finest 1911's, DA pull as good as the best Revo's, in a gun that runs like a steel Glock yet feels better in the hand then all of them IMO. Plus, I take off 2 of the mag pouches and throw on tge fishing vest and I'm GTG for IDPA SSP and ESP. The rig is solid, the shooter not so much...

Yes. Kinda sucks, but it's pretty much an essential part of Shadow-ownership, for whatever reason, our Czech friends build one awesome blaster, then throw the same springs into the 19rd mags that are already kind of weak in their 16rd mags. I'd be really surprised if the +10% springs don't cure your issues.

What gun, or really, what mags? In my experience if it's the SP-01/Shadow 19rd mags then the factory mag springs run from weak, if you're lucky, to just plain pathetic... the +10% mag springs are pretty much a must, if you're running 19 rounders I'll bet that's what's getting you...