SmittyFL

You looked fine to me. I think for a DQ, the RO better be damned sure you broke the 180. Let's remember the 180 is there for saftey reasons. 190 is probably not a real saftey risk on most ranges given the berms and where spectators are located, but 180 is the line in the sand which we need. However the RO should still be sure you were PAST, not AT the 180. Lets remember 180...OK 181...DQ. I think the fact you backed up to pick up the aray, he had 180 on the brain, and by just getting close he called it. Plus, he was not even at a good angle to see it. And the fact he reversed his call.....I could start another thread on that move.... proves he wasn't sure to begin with. But hey, we're here to have fun, and he made it right. That's all he can do, I'm sure he was just being over cautious, which is better than the alternative.

I agree with Vince. It was a chance he (you) took to gain a few tenths. At the Area 6 this year they had a stage with a start kinda like the cash n carry classifer. A table with a shelf under it, but there was no back to the shelf. I don't think it happened to anybody but my fear was going after the gun to aggressive and knocking it forward thru the open shelf. Now this was a little different than your situation in that the gun was loaded and it would have been a no question dq. So I opted to grab it a bit more slowly. That is one of the great things about this game, whether it is grabbing a gun, shooting on the move or engaging a target surrounded by no shoots, everything is risk vs. reward.

Ghost, I've used them in .40 and .45 for years. I use Rainer. I have been very happy. But you're right about the high velocity, they don't hold together with open guns in my experience.

RE: 2alpha's comment A guy I shoot with was DQ'd from the FL state match because his hammer followed during remedial action for a malfunction. His finger was not on the trigger and the rounds impacted the berm safely. After dissassembling and looking around it turned out to be a hack trigger job. (the gun was recently purchased used) He tried to get back in under the broken gun rule, and was denied. So basically there was no broken part, and a hack trigger job doesn't equal a broken gun. And I guess I agree with the ruling. It's a tough call but if something isn't actually broke, who can say for sure what is wrong. I would hate to be the person that let an unsafe gun back on the range and chance someone getting hurt.

Ron, I was speaking generally.....If you know the HHF (or average HHF) then you know what the time would have to be w/ all pts. Right?

TIS, That's what I figured also, but how the hell can I have a 100% w/ 8 pts. down? Edited: 9/24/03 Our guys were late sending in scores (surprise) but it did come in at 100%. That's my first.

RE: mcoliver's comment. Are empty mags allowed at the safe area? I thought they were. For example if you wanted to practice reloads before the shoot off or even before a stage. If you don't have any ammo on you, can you practice with empty mags????

During the shoot off at the FL Open due to an uneven number of competitors in my division I had to shoot back to back. (not that that matters but I've been using it as an excuse so go along with me) After my first run, I picked up my completely empty mag and put it in my #1 pouch, then started to walk off the range when I was told I was up again.......No problem. I returned to the line, loaded up and was ready to go. (Ha Ha) They had a little different format for the shoot off, you could reload anytime between the first and last popper. The quickest way seemed to be, shoot one popper (it was closer than the rest), reload and finish them off. At the buzzer, I took the first popper reloaded, got one round off and click......No ammo!! The wierd thing was, after I completed the reload and was acquiring the next target, I thought to myself "I just saw the follower of the mag I put in my gun......I shouldn't be able to see that!" It's amazing how fast your mind can work sometimes. Needless to say, I didn't win that round. But hey, there were only about 100 people watching!!! Lesson: DON'T PUT MAGS THAT ARE NOT FULLY LOADED ON YOUR BELT!!! They all go in my pocket now. Shoot Safe

59 pts @ 6.26 for 9.42 HF (Open M) It came in at 94.24%

52pts @ 4.85 secs for 10.72 (open, M) I was just shooting for brown.....and the points reflected that.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with Duane. (just kidding Duane) I think shooting a variety of guns, including rifles, improve your overall shooting ability. I know there are many people who dissagree with that statement. But shooting, at it's core, comes down to fundamentals of marksmanship. Really it's very simple, make sure the sights are aligned and on target and pull the trigger without disrupting the sights and you will hit your target EVERY time. But for some reason, trying to do that at lightening speed is difficult. I think whether you're shooting a rifle at 200yds or a .22 revolver at 10yds, it all helps with your fundamentals, trigger control, seeing the sights and target, etc. I know I enjoy shooting different guns and switch from time to time. One thing I would add, when preparing for a big match I do concentrate on the gun I'll be shooting for at least a month or two. I think you need to be familiar with that gun's feel, natural point of aim, trigger, etc.

Schoonie, One thing you might want to try is to take about 6 weeks off from shooting the revolver. Then quit totally.

Flex, I wasn't refering to grandbaggers with the 100% score comment, although I do know a couple of them. My point is, while these guys are good shooters, they are not GM's yet they have a 100% classifer on record. I suppose because the real GM's haven't shot that particular classifer. The point of this thread was not to bitch about baggers, as I said before, I don't care about people bagging and no system is going to completely stop that. I think it would be interesting to bring in all or mostly new classifers, have the pros shoot them.....somehow. And over the course of 6 months or a year, see how shooters' classifications shake out with the new stages. I have a feeling everybody would move up. Also, nobody answered my eariler question. Does anyone know how or when or if they change out the classifers? I've only been shooting a few years, and I don't think I've ever seen them change.

Hey Duane, I don't know how to do that quote thing, but you said only classifers shot during the match count toward classification. I dissagree. The classifer shot during the match has to count for the match score the first time you shoot it, but if you wanna pay a couple bucks most clubs will let you shoot it again for USPSA submission. You're probably right about the mentality of Travis and the Pro's, but by the same token I know a couple guys that have 100% classifers on record who are not GM's. Speaking of Travis, I was talking to an Army shooter at a match the other day and he mentioned Travis might be signing on for the Army. Have you heard anything about that?

Leo I know you know what I'm getting at but I'm going to say it anyway. I don't really have a problem with people sandbagging....if there that kind of "competitor" then there going to do it no matter what, there really isn't a system that will prevent it. I don't have a problem with people grandbagging either. I think classification should be a representation of your ability to shoot for real. I've seen videos of dudes doing .50 draws but I seriously doubt they have ever done it in a match. Yeah, they can do it but not consistantly enough to attempt it in a match. That's the same way I feel about classifers, they might be able to pull of an incredible run, but it takes them 15 tries with 20 mikes to get it right. It would be interesting to have all new classifers and shoot them at the nationals. They don't even have to be the same format, they could have field courses also. Or just change slightly some of the ones we have now. Shoot the el prez at 20 or 40 feet, or move the targets farther apart. Of course I guess if they did that at the nationals for new classifers that would make life easy for the sandbaggers. Oh well........................... By the way Leo, did you see they used the classifer from the state match? I figured that one would get thrown out.

I guess maybe I haven't been around long enough, but when do they change classifers? Do they change them all at once and the current ones are null and void? I suppose that would solve part of the problem. It's not that I think the scores aren't valid scores. I just don't think they are a true representation of what can be done under match conditions. Maybe I'm not thinking of it right, but it seems to me that thats how one's skill should be evaluated. I know I could score a hell of a lot higher if I could sit there and shoot el prez all day without it counting in a match. I don't think you should have to shoot at 110% or sometimes 150% on a classifer in order to move up as Leo said. I'm glad I'm not the one who has to come up with the rules. It sure is easy to sit back and sharp shoot it.

Leo, What you said in your first post is exactly what I was thinking. Some courses I felt I did average on are high scores while others I thought I could not have done any better are in the 60's. I'm by no means a top shooter, but on some of the ones I feel I shot well and ended up with a low %age, it's not tough to figure out that whoever has the top score shot the stage more than once and probably not during a match. It's getting to the point now that I know if I'm going to move up, I have to really hang it out on a classifer and jeapordize the stage as far as the match is concerned. As I said in my initial post. I think the system is pretty good. I understand it is a hard process to establish and maintain. I just thought it was a cool idea to start from scratch. Especially now that many of the "old" pros are still shooting while at the same time we have many "new" shooters taking over. I feel if we could get all or most of them together (i.e. Nationals) to shoot a bunch of new classifers it would be a good boost to moral and motivation for us regular shooters.

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I thought it would spark some interesting ideas. First off, I think USPSA has done a pretty good job with the current class system, however I think the bar has been set pretty high on some classifiers. And some others seem like nobody has shot them. I was talking to a guy at the SF champ match the other day and he had a pretty good idea. Come up with all or mostly new classifers and have all the top dogs shoot them. Either pay them to come and shoot or I thought it would be cool to have the nationals all classifers. Yeah that would piss some people off, but they would probably still shoot just because it is the nationals. But the key is they shoot them once, under match conditions for the HFF. I only shoot classifers at matches once as does all the shooters at the clubs I've shot at. I don't know if other people shoot them over and over for score but that is what it seems like has happened to many of the current classifers. I just thought it was kinda of a neat idea, and was curious as to how others feel about it. Smitty

Tom, I haven't shot at that range, but Area 6 is usually a good match. It should be hot. I know the last couple of matches here if FL have been getting pretty warm. A bunch of FL guys are going up. Should be a fun match.

Ok......I give up. You convinced me. Boycott it.....In fact, now I'm not going to go either. Seriously, If you and others have told him and he doesn't care, then I guess there ain't nothing else to do but skip it. I think Garcia here in FL is going to put on a single stack match. I'm not sure when, but if he does it, it will probably be good.

First off, I'm not shooting this match, and probably never will. But I've heard it is a good match. I would just hate to see a good match go away because shooters boycott it. It takes a lot of work to put on a large scale match and it is impossible to make everybody happy. Heck the folks who put it on probably don't even know how you guys feel. Maybe suggest to them to devise a class system based on USPSA that takes IDPA classifications and puts them in a USPSA class. I'm not sure how IDPA classes their shooters but you should be able to make an educated guess at where they would fall in USPSA. Then they could also have a lewis class. I used to shoot a steel match in WA that did just that. It had it's own class system that took USPSA and IDPA and "fit" them into a class. Then they had a lewis system as kind of a catch all to give more opportunity for awards. If it is a match you normally shoot, I would suggest trying to work with the MD and let him or her know how you feel. Rather than just not showing up.

My point is, as long as they score everybody, then it is a competition. Shoot to see how you do against other shooters. Is the reason you shoot matches to win 1st D or C in order to win a prize? I shoot to see how well I can do...in the match....against everybody. I want to win the match.... granted I never do, but that is still my goal. Not shooting a match because they don't have prizes for 1st D sounds like a sandbagger mentality. I'm not saying anyone is bagging, I'm just saying thats what it comes across sounding like. Boycotting a match isn't going to make them change, what they are doing must be drawing more shooters or they wouldn't do it. And drawing more shooters, no matter what sport they come from should be the goal. Boycotting it will just result in one less match to shoot every year. Just my $.02

I don't get the problem, isn't there a match winner?

I'm moving from para to sti, I'm interested on opinions of long or short dustcovers. Does the extra weight reduce felt recoil enough to make it worth slower transitions? What are your general opinions? Thanks, Smitty

Big Dave, I think it depends on what your goals in the match are. #1 has to be to have fun, otherwise it will be a long day. I love xcount's statement about the extended range time. If #1 is your main goal, then don't worry too much about anything, just go shoot. Obviously you have to think about the stage differently than when shooting a square gun, but don't worry too much about it just shoot and reload.....and reload.....and reload. But if you want the best possible hit factor or you are competing against other revolvers in an IPSC match then you need to think a little more. Figure out the comstock factor for you and the stage. (see Matt Burkett's web site if you don't know how to do it) then you have to know your reload times. It may be benifical to only put one round in a target or two. For instance if you end a stage with a bank of four targets and you figure you can take two mikes and have a better HF than if you do a standing reload, then just fire one round in the last two targets to avoid a FTE. This could be done at any point during a stage but you need to figure it out ahead of time. But like I said, the main thing is to have fun. Plus I like to see how many square gun guys I can beat. To steal a piece from Bubber and xcount....."keep 'em turnin and have a beer afterwords". Smitty