SmittyFL

I haven't shot the 4 target version, but we a two target version. The first time I saw it, (FL Open) I didn't think it could be "tracked" and I shot one round at a time. But having shot it many times since, "tracking" it is the only way to go. Depending on the distance it isn't as tough as it looks.

Maybe I should have started my previous post with "For Me" Of course there are many aspects to mastering this game, that's what makes it so great. But I think most high A or M class shooters have the basic's or fundamentals down pretty good. Draw's, splits, transitions, reloads can only be so fast. I know .10ths matter, however I think the biggest gap between a low master and GM's/Pro's is in shooting on the move. At least for me, that is the difference. Many of the normal shooters I watch that think they are proficient at shooting on the move, move so slow to get their hits they might as well be standing still. I shot with Eric G. at the FL Open and was flat out amazed at how quick he moved while hitting A's. I swear he was almost sprinting. That was a HUGE eye opener for me. I wouldn't even have thought it was possible to accurately engage targets as fast as he was moving. And hitting A's no less. I think that is the difference. That is my main goal for next years season, to become much more proficient at shooting on the move.

Erik, I think you are right on Re: movement I shot with the SS at the FL Open. Most of the match was wide open with shooting on the move available or there were many sweet spots you could go to and shoot a lot of targets. If the targets are close I'm fine, but once they get farther out I don't have the confidence to shoot on the move. I can't seem to call my shots very well. So I would haul ass to the sweet spot and hose them down. Then the big boys would come behind me but by the time they got to the sweet spot they only had one target left to shoot because they shot them all on the way and got there almost as quick as I did. I'm convinced that is the difference. To get to the "next" level you have to be able to shoot A's on 20-25 yd targets while on the move. That is the 10-20% difference in stage points.

I was under the assumption that if a target exposes itself more than once then it is not a disappearing even if it completely disappears eventually. Am I incorrect?

Don't forget my favorite: Shooter: "What was my time?" RO: "Hold on, let me check the sun dial!"

TL, Yeah, it's a tough one. I'm trying to figure a way to use how they finished in their class and division as a percentage. So if your D shooter was first D production and your M shooter was 5th M limited the D shooter would in effect help the team more. I know....I Know....I'm still working on it.

old john, I don't shoot much 3 gun but there are matches. We also have action rifle. Below is a link to a web site that may help you. I'm not sure of the schedule. There should be contact info for Mick Sterling on the site. Feel free to contact him, he runs the rifle and 3 gun stuff. He'll know the schedule and would be happy to talk to you. http://flpracticalshooting.com/

I have not been apart of a club that went under or was lost for any reason. But I know people who have and I imagine it would suck. I'm also apart of 4 clubs shooting every Sunday and one has a mini match every Fri night. I really don't mind setting up, I enjoy coming up with stages. And when I shoot revolver I make damn sure I'm there to set up to protect my interests Sometimes my work schedule prevents me from being there early. We have guys that help often, guys that are always there, guys that are never there. The bottom line is it takes a lot to put on a match every month. Maybe some people don't realize that and we do have to ask for help every now and then. Some people will be glad to and some won't.......That's life. We all love this sport, maybe some aspects are more work than we like to do on the weekend but we have to do what needs to be done. Or risk driving the club pres away or worse losing the club all together.

Zach, Awesome observation!!! I probably wouldn't have noticed it. I think that just goes to show you that ability far outways technology. Maybe instead of running out to buy the latest flux capacitor nuclear powered recoil control system we should do some dryfiring in our living room. Smitty

Twix, no I'm not a yankee fan. I have to respect their business model though. It's a shame when that's what it comes to in sports. Go Steelers, the last team to Draft their way to a championship. By having an 8 person team and only using 4 scores I was trying to let the smaller clubs be able to play also. Eric's idea is interesting also. I'll have to put some more thought to it. If I could come up with an easy way to score it, I don't see why it wouldn't take off. The goal is just for fun, obviously it is a competition but for the majority of the shooters who realize a match win is probably not in their near future I think it would add to the fun and maybe bring shooters to a big match who wouldn't normally attend. The thing I would really like to do is to be able to have different classes and divisions on the same team and keep the scoring even or fair. That is the tough part. But if you allow different divisions I think it would increase the pool of shooters to draw from. I would like to figure out a system so that a revolver or production D class shooter can help the team as much as a M class open shooter.......I'll think about it.

Hey Paul, I've seen your posts here frequently, I didn't realize you were a Florida boy. I think we shot the same match Sun at Frank's. Didn't you have gun problems? I heard someone blasting away in another bay. I'm taking Frank's class in November, so far I think there is only two of us if you're interested.

MILD HARSHOSITY.......MILD HARSHOSITY.......I'm about to cry!!! Rhino, maybe you didn't read Don's statement that you quoted and agreed with the same way I did. "Do you really feel it is a good practice to charge a Fee and expect Free labor?" That's the attitude I was refering to. It sounds like Don thinks the "fee" is paying someone to make a living setting up and putting on a match. All the labor at the club level is free. To enjoy our sport, that's what it takes. Obviously everybody can't be there to set up, nor is everybody needed. But you know the people I'm talking about. If someone rolls in 10 minutes before the match, doesn't do much during the match, and rolls out when their last round is fired.....yeah, I have a problem with that. As I said before, maybe this goes in the hate forum. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.....scales.....skin.....whatever rhino's have.

I'm not sure where this post should go, if not here someone move it please. I was wondering if anyone has taken Frank Garcia's course, and if so, their thoughts on it. Since this is a new post, include any courses taken from pro shooters that you felt was worth the time and money.

Don & Rhino, Maybe you guys don't understand how this game works. Those stages don't just appear overnight. Someone has to set them up, tear them down, score, etc. If everybody had your attitude of "I paid to shoot this, so I don't have to do squat" there wouldn't be a match at all. You do realize that don't you? If it's a big match and I'm paying $100 or more, then I agree, shooters shouldn't be expected to set up. But we're talking about the local level, club matches. Shred is right, we probably could organize it so you could shoot n scoot. I think $50 monthly matches should cover that. But that wouldn't last either. I think Kurt has a good point. If folks don't care to pay their fee and do nothing. Maybe adding 10 bucks to their fee would solve the problem. Either they would get off their lazy ass or at least the people who did help could split the money for lunch and some beers. Smitty

Limited M 86 @ 15.15 = 5.6766 It felt slow, and after reviewing the scores here, I guess it was. That's the first time I've shot that one. I think I was too concerned with the no shoots and hard cover.

I think we've all been there........and it sucks!!! You gotta just finish the stage, unload and show clear, turn around and give the gallery a look like "Yeah, my finger is THAT fast!" and calmly walk off with a smile.

Vince: After I read my orginal post, I too, thought it was confusing. In my head it isn't though. Let me try again. The object is to involve all classes of shooters, built comradrie within local clubs, and above all, have a good time. The purpose behind having 8 person teams is to involve as many people as possible from your club, but only using 4 people for scoring in case smaller clubs can't field an 8 person team to a major match. You may only use one person per class to avoid stacking your team and to involve new shooters. But have a scoring system that allows any of your shooters to come from any division. So you could have an Open A, Limited B, Production C, and L-10 M. Or they could all be in one division but they have to be from different classes. I haven't thought all the way through the scoring but it would have to be based on how each shooter finished within their division. Then add them up or average them for the team score somehow. All team members have to be from the same club, that would have to be moderated somehow to avoid stacking the team. (So you couldn't go to the USPSA web site top 20 in class and pick the top shooter from each class) Also, any shooter who placed in a class higher than the one they are in couldn't be used as one of the team's 4 scores. I have lived and shot in a couple of different states, and the new shooters (or the C and D class shooters) don't seem to attend the big matches. I don't think it is the money, I just think some people don't want to spend the time and money to travel to a big match and get their ass kicked when they can do that just fine at home. Whatever the reason, I thought this would be a way to encourage (apply peer pressure) to the C and D shooters to come to the big match and be on the team. Since theoretically a D shooter could help the team as much as a GM could. Plus you could make cool shirts for the team to walk around in (I hear chicks dig matching shirts). Does that explain it better? More imput from forum members please!!!!

I don't think the scoring would be that difficult. No more than it already is. I'm mainly concerned with people's thoughts. Would you be interested? Has anything like this been tried before? Doesn't the World Shoot have some kind of a team thing?

OK......Here's the deal. At the "big" matches, they have a "team" catagory. Each team may have a maximum of 8 members. The team must represent a club active with USPSA. Each team member must have shot the MAJORITY of their classifers (minimum of three) at THAT club within the previous 12 months. Only the top 4 team member scores will be used. Only one score may be used per class. (So you can't bring 8 GM's) U is not a class. A team member must shoot in the highest division they are classed. (If they are M in Limited, they may not shoot L-10 in which they have an A card) The score will be based on the percentage of how the team member finished in their division. If you finish in the top three of a class higher than you are, your score may not be used. You have to pay an extra 5-8 bucks per team to enter the team competition and in the winners get a trophy or something. It would go something like this: Team Hosers Frank M Limited Bob A L - 10 John A Limited Fred B Open Mary C Open Jack C Production Moe D L - 10 Larry D Revolver So that is your team, you can only use 1 person per class and only a total of four. You use their percentage within their division. So if Frank was 92% in limited you would use him and Bob was 86% in L-10 vs. John's 82% in Limited you would go with Bob. Fred had a 83% in open but his Overall finish put him ahead of 3rd A class so you couldn't use Fred. Mary was 72% in Open compared to Jack's 74% in Production so you would go with Jack. And Moe was 36% in L-10 vs. Larry's 62% in Revolver so you would go with Larry. In this scenario you would use Frank 92% / Bob 86% / Jack 74% / Larry 62% So you would either add up or otherwise calculate the team's scores to come up with a winner. I just made this up so I'm open to suggestions on scoring, membership, is it a good idea, would you go for it, etc. I just think it would be fun for clubs, they could make shirts, etc., and to bring new shooters out to big matches, since you have to use different classes per team member. Whadda ya think? Smitty

Rufus: I know where you are coming from. I'm just not sure it's necessary or that it would improve stages. One of the clubs I shoot at gives you I think 3 bucks off the match fee if you help set up. Another club doesn't go anything. And it's the same people that help set up at both clubs. My point is I think if someone is the type of person that helps his friends out then they are going to do it no matter what. And the club has to stay afloat, so you can't give too much away. If you offered a free match then that would probably bring out many more people to "help" set up by getting there early and standing around BSing. I also fully understand guys getting burned out. If the guys that have been shooting at these clubs for 10 or 15 years didn't want to help all the time I would be cool with that. But you know what, those guys are there most of the time because they know what needs to be done to put on a match. You know who I'm talking about, the guys who don't lift a finger.....ever. Those are the ones I can't stand. I just don't think offering what the club could afford, which wouldn't be much, would help bring out other people or improve stages. Maybe it would, I just don't think so.

Rhino: This is a volunteer sport, at local matches shooters, all shooters should be expected to help set up, tear down, ro, score, whatever needs to be done. If they just want to show up and shoot and leave, then don't even bother coming. My favorite is the guys that arrive 10 minutes before the walk thru and then bitch about the stages. "That's to much running, this isn't an athletic competition / that target is to close to the 180 / that port is to low / this stage has to high of a round count / this stage has to low of a round count" and then as soon as they finish shooting they take off. If they don't want to spend their weekend helping and supporting the sport they enjoy then they are welcome to go play golf. In fact I'll give them directions to the nearest waste of good shooting range.......I mean golf course. I guess this should go in the hate forum, but those kind of shooters F'in piss me off!!!!

I thought in CA everybody was L-10. Can the Limited/Open guys use Hi-Caps there?

Your red dot isn't any different than any other optic. If you have a quality sight, I'm most familiar with the aimpoint family, then it should be 100% parallax free. Just like any scope you're only going to be exactly zero'ed at 1 exact distance. (well two actually but only one that we're concerned with) So pick a distance that you're comfortable with, I use 100yds, that will be your zero. As for adjusting for targets at different distances, the only way to accurately do that it hit the range. Make yourself a little cheat sheet you can quickly refer to for when your at matches. You probably will need some type of a riser if you're directly on the flat top now. Many companies make them, I think mine is from rock river. As far as the line of sight issue; When I was in the military before we adopted the Aimppoints, we tested just about every product on the market. It came down to the ACOG and the Aimpoint. We asked the dude from Aimpoint about your parallax/line of sight thing and they way he described it, it doesn't matter where your head is or where the dot is in the scope. The "dot" is looking out the center of the tube. Hope this helps.

Wouldn't that be a great headline for the next Front Site. I did a search and didn't see any threads on this topic. I've heard rumors about trying to make IPSC and Olympic sport but never anything solid. It sure would be great to see our sport represented. Does anyone have any insight into whether we've ever seriously tried to get it in? Why it was turned down? Especially our forum members from outside the US, I'm not sure of all the gun laws, and if that is the main problem. Or it the main problem is image. Maybe a Steel Challenge type format, if is more exciting to watch than IPSC and it seems to have some international interest. I know they have the rapid fire thing, but thats not even close to what we do. What do ya think? Smitty

I'll check the over travel although I don't think that is the problem. Any of you builders or backroom gunsmiths out there, what, if any, is the advantage to STI's sear spring? It tapers down then widens back out at the sear contact point, as opposed to one that is the same width the whole length of the finger. I imagine it has less tension and maybe easier to set light. Is that right? Or is there something else?