Chris iliff

That’d be interesting, but remember,...I’m not really talking about a CO gun. The CO gun winning just caused me to think,....how much more could he have won by, if he didn’t have to follow all the restrictions in CO?? Basically, a heretofore never developed minor gun in open.

Yes you kinda nail my hypothesis. Except, as an industry, I don’t believe we’ve ever explored minor in an open platform outside the pre-existing Open gun paradigm. Im asking because I’m not sold myself. Plus I love the exchange, especially from people that know competition shooting. I will say this, ,...I wouldn’t shoot steel challenge with some watered down version of a traditional open platform anymore.

It’s always the shooter, so you are singing to the choir on that point. I agree 100%. But in this competition we find that a shooter beat his own open times, with a different platform. Its about as heads up a comparison as you can get between two platforms. Big name, big stakes. Same guy. I don’t believe BJ was shooting a wonder gun. Thats kinda my point. Hmmm,..I had an exact replica of my open gun in .22. So easy I got rid of it.

First paragraph is spot on, thanks. Yep, that’s about what I was wondering. Second paragraph,...didn’t better shooters kinda just demonstrate that they could shoot faster, at least on steel? Using a platform that is constrained by rules I might add. Like you Moto, I am also just a garden variety M open shooter who has only dabbled over the last 15 or so years. I find it all interesting and appreciate all the feedback. It makes Enos the best.

Oh you misunderstand me. Taking it personal couldn’t be further from the truth. Hence, the the light hearted lol. Seems like we managed some “extra speed” on a clunky CO gun?? It did win HOA. I’m just wondering, if there could be enough more developments, hitherto undiscovered, to warrant a look? So far, I really haven’t heard much other than,...1 shot game vs 2 shot game. Which is valid. I’ve also gathered that we possibly could gain some innovation in “open” steel guns. I mean the results alone warrant a fresh look at “open” steel guns and the generally agreed upon conventions surrounding them. Again, we skyrocketed along a certain paradigm with an open gun,.....outside of Steel guns, that look exactly like traditional open guns, no one has ever went full bore the other direction. I find it interesting. YMMV.

Not even close, lol.

Hmmm, I’ll up your negativity with a resounding no, to your no. Lol So you are positive, through your decades of testing and research, that a minor shooting purpose built open gun that doesn’t have to follow the platform rules of “co” and could be built using open rules,... is simply a “no”. Thanks Moto, you have never disappointed me. Send me all that research and every single mod you tried and discarded. It’ll be a great time saver.

That is definitely true. And you further define what what I am having trouble expressing. Thanks. Now, ...don’t think traditional “open” or “co” or even “production with optic.” Take away all constraints on that CO build. What would be accomplished then? I'm talking about a gun that hasn’t been built yet. An area not fully explored. With a frame mounted dot on a purpose built pistol for “minor”, ...could you achieve a flat shooting beast that was so good, it negated all the bells and whistles on a traditional open gun AND made major scoring less of an issue, maybe even a moot point?

Really? They did that because a minor gun beat an open gun for HOA in a major match with the best shooters in attendance? I don’t remember that.

That about perfectly sums up what I’m thinking. Thanks for finding the brevity that eluded me, lol. Has CO exposed a possible strategy or possible design shift of an open gun?

Wow! Lots to think about. But maybe i didn't define EXACTLY what I’m thinking correctly. First, has open tech peaked? Pretty simple. Yes or no. I’m leaning yes. Second, have we really explored minor tech? Basically, we take stock guns and slap slide ride optics on them. These CO guns have tons of rules for mods. There’s just only so much you can do to the gun. But yet, here we are, and HISTORY of sorts, has been made. A platform OUTSIDE open won HOA at a world speed shoot. So this caused me to think..... What if I didn’t have to follow the modification rules of CO? What if I built a weapon, designed for minor, that had the same round capacity as open? Except, because I’m in Open, I can just about perform any mod I want. Has this ever been truly explored?? Forget the paradigm of a typical open gun. The typical open gun shooting mouse fart minor just got beat by a typical CO gun shooting mouse fart minor. Now rethink the open gun. Redesign it without the restrictions placed on a production or CO gun. I don’t believe we even know all the possibilities. Years ago we went skyrocketing in one direction (paradigm) with open and never looked back. This HOA by a CO caused me to wonder if the thinking for Open is stuck in the original paradigm? Which seems to have always been pushing bullets faster and generating as much gas as possible to blow through a comp keeping the gun flat. So maybe that that is a better explanation of my thinking.

I’m cross dominant. 15+ years USPSA. Im not talking optics, but yes.

If you check out the World Speed Shoot scores you might be surprised to see that at least one VERY GOOD OPEN GUY beat his open gun times with a CO gun. So you think if the game was two on each steel the Open gun wins? In the same hands? Not so sure. I dont buy that. My premise being,...I think CO won because it’s lighter, faster, and has less recoil in minor. Which means it’s measurably faster in sight acquisition/recoil control and transitions. These factors combine to negate minor scoring over a field course. In the right hands that is.

In light of the world speed shoot outcome,...has The advancement of open technology peaked/stalled???? Will open minor now become a thing....Super light everything, frame mounted optic? Shooting as low a power factor as possible? Is the paradigm shattered?? Does a faster FPS, more gas, better comped guns shoot flatter and faster and better? Hmmmm. Let’s go in reverse with what we’ve been thinking for 45 years and build a gun that shoots soooo flat at minor power factor, that giving up some points don’t matter. WOW.

Well there you go. Best advice.

Put another NRA Convention in the books. Talked with Jake and Foley and Rick Steele while there. Good guys. House still raking time. Dryed in with most of the insulation done. Hoping to clear it up this summer. Work isn’t going well. My company is pulling the factory out of my hometown. Sq. D has been operating in Peru, Indiana, since the turn of the 1900’s. I’ve been there for 25 years. Not sure what I’ll do next.

I use aftec exclusively in my Open gun. I have had 3 different occasions over the years that resulted in malfunctions that cost me tons of point. Two broken ears on the cup and one broken spring. Yes, believe it or not, one of those little springs broke in half. All malfunctions happened mid Match. So, I can see the switch to a good one piece extractor being beneficial. Simply less to go wrong. YMMV.

Call Cmore and get a return authorization #. Im sure they’ll help.

House project took up 2018 summer. Still working on it. Shooting never far from from my mind. I want to get back to shooting solid Master class or above. I have the easy part done.

Well I did get to FT. Wayne today. 6 State level stages and they are only drawing 20-30 shooters a month. Which is sad. I shot SS Minor. Ended 5th out of 23. I had some minor issues, ammo related,...all on me and easily fixed. Basically I shot up some cast rounds that were loaded long. They caused some gun hiccups. i Barney’d a round using a mag that came with the gun. I did not get the mag seated. No round chambered. Imagine my surprise as the first shooter on our first stage and my first shot was the loudest CLICK I ever heard. I was discombobulated to say the least. I managed to turn a really cool 10 second cross-swinger type stage into 40 seconds of misery. it did gradually get better from stage to stage. So I can’t complain. I mean heck,... I do not practice. My reloads are glacial. My movement needs work. Transitions could be clocked with a sun dial. Blah blah blah. I HAD A BLAST!!!!! It was hot and tiring but I was on the range with some real good people. Thank you Corey and Ryan and all the set up crew at Ft. Wayne. What an outstanding and challenging match. If you are in Indiana and take USPSA seriously, this is a must go match. You are going to become a better shooter with this match as part of your monthly itinerary. This place should be rocking 40-50 shooters monthly.

NRA was great. Saw some old friends and that was nice. Shot Warsaw. Gun and mages ran flawlessly. So much better than a year ago. Overall I was 11th out of 28 shooters. I won SS division shooting 9 minor. That was a surprise. I shot good points mostly. No mikes, no penalties. Shot a bit slow. Classifiers calc showed a solid 79% on classifier Six. Draw was glacial and I had one make up on the steel. Not it sure how much more I’ll be shooting. Maybe Ft. Wayne next, not sure. It it was fun. Good squad.

Haven’t had a chance to dial anything in. The weather in Indiana has been crazy. When I wake up on April 19th to a dusting of snow I want to curse my Indiana settling ancestors. Rain and cold, cold and rain. Sold camper. Sold truck. Looking for different of each. NRA in Dallas coming up. That is always a fun trip. If if I ever get a nice day I’ll do some shooting and testing.

Getting some failures to feed at 1.140. Dropped to 1.130 and lowered powder to 2.9gr Titegroup. PF at 134.5. Going to shoot and monitor next 100 or so and see if the few failures to feed go away. Magazines are dropping like par times in a Steve Anderson dryfire class. So, I’m very happy with the Dawson 1911 9mm mags.

Mags and bullets arrived. Spent some of today dialing in my load. I’m shooting 9mm using SNS 147 grain “red” round nose bullets, 3.0 grains of Titegroup, OAL of 1.140, Winchester Small rifle primer and BK brass. Ran several groups of 5 through the chrono and I’m right at 137pf. I have added just a hair more crimp and will probably go out on OAL to 1.150, I’ll have to chrono again. I’d like about 133-135 Pf. Im almost there. I shot groups and posted a pic on facebook. Meh, 6 shot group in 2 strings of 3. Not bad, not great. All me. Ripped some berm drills looking at that front sight. More to come.....

That actually kinda reinforces The point. Tell me, he shoots all glocks left, or just his? Look, the sight drift thing on Glocks is well documented on this forum. I had to drift the sight when I first started on Glocks. But over time that sight returned to middle of gun. It’s very common. I no longer shoot Glocks, strictly 1911 grip angle guns for me. But, I have a funny story of a guy ready to trash his Glocks because he couldn’t figure out how to press the trigger on one. Not that he knew that was the problem. His Glocks shot perfectly fine for me. YMMV.