Compare limited and open speed

[teros135]

On Sunday, December 04, 2016 at 5:00 PM, MikieM said:

An open gun will not necessarily be more accurate, just because it is a gun used in open division.

STI, for example, uses the same barrel in both their Limited and Open pistols. The only difference is the comp. 

Even if the guns were exactly the same accuracy the shooter can be more accurate with the dot, particularly with longer or tighter targets, because it's small and discrete. 

[MikieM]

6 minutes ago, teros135 said:

No, I didn't say anything about the draw, nor intend to infer anything.  

I see the dot as being faster to put on target, in any sort of transition (between shots, between targets, etc.), because you're not aligning three things and the dot is small and discrete. 

I agree, although I don't know what discretion has to do with it.

Edited December 9, 2016 by MikieM

[teros135]

On Sunday, December 04, 2016 at 5:00 PM, MikieM said:

An open gun will not necessarily be more accurate, just because it is a gun used in open division.

STI, for example, uses the same barrel in both their Limited and Open pistols. The only difference is the comp. 

Even if the guns were exactly the same accuracy the shooter can be more accurate with the dot, particularly with longer or tighter targets, because it's small and discrete. 

[MikieM]

2 minutes ago, teros135 said:

Even if the guns were exactly the same accuracy the shooter can be more accurate with the dot, particularly with longer or tighter targets, because it's small and discrete. 

The dot has never been an issue here, and I still don't understand the discretion part.

[teros135]

30 minutes ago, MikieM said:

The dot has never been an issue here, and I still don't understand the discretion part.

Not "discreet", which refers to social behavior, as in the showing of reserve and prudence in one's behavior or speech.  Discretion would be the process of being discreet.

The dot is "discrete", as in distinct, separate, unrelated.  It's small, round, bright, and distinct.  You can put a 6 moa dot on a head box (A-B zone) of the USPSA metric target at 50 yards and see it as discrete and distinct within the 6x6" cardboard.  Same at other distances, and with partials, especially at match speed.  Harder to do that with a fiber optic front sight (which has to be aligned with the rear sight, and both with the target), especially when you're trying to do it fast. 

I'd say the dot has always been a factor in the OP's question, which is about "which is faster".  It's part of the difference between the 9mm Limited and Open guns; the other is the compensator system (comp/barrel holes).  The OP said, "In my mind I would guess the open gun would be faster since the muzzle would remain flatter and settle back on target faster."  The dot adds to the potential for speedy shooting, because it's a very discrete sighting point and is easier to align on the target. 

 

[MikieM]

1 hour ago, teros135 said:

Not "discreet", which refers to social behavior, as in the showing of reserve and prudence in one's behavior or speech.  Discretion would be the process of being discreet.

The dot is "discrete", as in distinct, separate, unrelated.  It's small, round, bright, and distinct.  You can put a 6 moa dot on a head box (A-B zone) of the USPSA metric target at 50 yards and see it as discrete and distinct within the 6x6" cardboard.  Same at other distances, and with partials, especially at match speed.  Harder to do that with a fiber optic front sight (which has to be aligned with the rear sight, and both with the target), especially when you're trying to do it fast. 

I'd say the dot has always been a factor in the OP's question, which is about "which is faster".  It's part of the difference between the 9mm Limited and Open guns; the other is the compensator system (comp/barrel holes).  The OP said, "In my mind I would guess the open gun would be faster since the muzzle would remain flatter and settle back on target faster."  The dot adds to the potential for speedy shooting, because it's a very discrete sighting point and is easier to align on the target. 

 

Agreed. Well said.

The original reply regarding which gun was faster did not make those discretion's, or distinctions. Clarification was needed.

From draw to first shot, on target, the Open gun would be faster. 

However, from draw to first shot anywhere on the berm, what gun would be faster?

[teros135]

4 minutes ago, MikieM said:

Agreed. Well said.

The original reply regarding which gun was faster did not make those discretion's, or distinctions. Clarification was needed.

From draw to first shot, on target, the Open gun would be faster. 

However, from draw to first shot anywhere on the berm, what gun would be faster?

The one that's in the best holster and has the better grip and trigger - for that individual shooter.  If he/she's relaxed and isn't "pushing" the shot.  Etc. 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

 

9 minutes ago, MikieM said:

From draw to first shot, on target, the Open gun would be faster. 

However, from draw to first shot anywhere on the berm, what gun would be faster?

I don't know how much a draw to 1st shot into the berm really matters..But I can't see how either would really be faster. The time it takes to grab the gun and get it in front of your face shouldn't really change.

I've just started playing with a limited gun and haven't done much testing. But I did shoot some 1.80 ish Bill drills at 7 yards with it the other day. Pretty much the same as I did with my open gun. The limit at that point is me, not the gun. The two guns are set up to feel very similar and use the same holster etc. I think on close open targets you can go so fast with either set up it will be hard to tell if the differences you see are from the equipment or just something the shooter did.

As the shots get harder the shooter will quickly start to see the differences.

[MikieM]

35 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I don't know how much a draw to 1st shot into the berm really matters..But I can't see how either would really be faster. The time it takes to grab the gun and get it in front of your face shouldn't really change.

I've just started playing with a limited gun and haven't done much testing. But I did shoot some 1.80 ish Bill drills at 7 yards with it the other day. Pretty much the same as I did with my open gun. The limit at that point is me, not the gun. The two guns are set up to feel very similar and use the same holster etc. I think on close open targets you can go so fast with either set up it will be hard to tell if the differences you see are from the equipment or just something the shooter did.

As the shots get harder the shooter will quickly start to see the differences.

The reason I mentioned shooting into the berm was to eliminate the need to acquire a target. My contention is that under this circumstance, both guns are the same.

However, when drawing and acquiring a target, I believe, as most do, that the dot is faster.  

[Racinready300ex]

That is pretty much what I was saying, so I think we agree.

[a matt]

9 hours ago, MikieM said:

The barrels have the same the same dimensions. Five inch length. .355 inch bore. I in 16 twist. 

Thank you for info. I never knew the actual twist rate was 1in16th twist. Good to know.