Dan Wesson CBOB 10mm

[barney88pdc]

Ok I know some 1911's have a break in period. So my question is, is what follows part of a regular break in or is something wrong. I bought a new CBOB in 10mm. I put 150 rounds through it in the first range session with about 10-15 failure to feeds. It would always eject the case but would have trouble picking up the next round. IIRC twice the next round flipped vertical in the gun with the bullet sticking up out of the ejection port. When I got home I took the gun down to clean and oil it and I did see some metal flakes in the the slide rails (very tiny). There were some polished looking streaks on the frame rails and in the rails on the slide. So I was thinking good it is breaking in no big deal. I oiled it up and went to the range again this past weekend. I ran 100 more rounds through it and had about 7-10 failures to feed. And atleast twice I think 3 or 4 times the slide locked open with rounds left in the gun. THE BIG thing this time was TWICE the gun would not go 100% into battery. It would eject the spent case and feed the next round but not close all the way. I would say the slide was about 1/4" from completely closing and when I tried to rack the slide it was jammed up pretty good. The first time it did it I yanked and pulled as hard as I could on the slide and finally on about the fifth time I got the round out of the gun. The second time I could not get the round out by just trying to manapulate the slide normally. I had to go put the edge of the slide on a piece of wood and press down HARD to get the slide to cycle to eject the round. I inspected the round to see if there were any defects or possibly the case not being crimped properly but everything looked normal. Both of these rounds I put back in the mag racked the slide and they both feed fine, went off and ejected normally so I really do not think it was ammo related. All of these rounds were factory ammo. The first range session consisted of 100 Blazer Aluminum cased rounds and 50 rounds from Double Tap Ammo. The second range session was 100 rounds of Double Tap. 50 180gr Controlled Expansion JHP and 50 200gr Controlled Expansion JHP.

After this last session I took the gun down again and it was basicly clean. Really no more flakes (and when I say flakes really tiny not like big peices of metal). The gun was hardly fouled at all. And I inspected all of the parts to look for any obvious signs of damage. Everything looks normal. I also visually looked at the mags and they seem fine as well. I did not put a caliper to them but they look identical and no obvious damage to the feed lips.

So has anyone else had any issues like this with a break in? One of my shooting buddies thinks I should just shoot some more rounds through it and I will but how long can I expect this to continue if this is normal?

[tpcdvc]

Ok I know some 1911's have a break in period. So my question is, is what follows part of a regular break in or is something wrong. I bought a new CBOB in 10mm. I put 150 rounds through it in the first range session with about 10-15 failure to feeds. It would always eject the case but would have trouble picking up the next round. IIRC twice the next round flipped vertical in the gun with the bullet sticking up out of the ejection port. When I got home I took the gun down to clean and oil it and I did see some metal flakes in the the slide rails (very tiny). There were some polished looking streaks on the frame rails and in the rails on the slide. So I was thinking good it is breaking in no big deal. I oiled it up and went to the range again this past weekend. I ran 100 more rounds through it and had about 7-10 failures to feed. And atleast twice I think 3 or 4 times the slide locked open with rounds left in the gun. THE BIG thing this time was TWICE the gun would not go 100% into battery. It would eject the spent case and feed the next round but not close all the way. I would say the slide was about 1/4" from completely closing and when I tried to rack the slide it was jammed up pretty good. The first time it did it I yanked and pulled as hard as I could on the slide and finally on about the fifth time I got the round out of the gun. The second time I could not get the round out by just trying to manapulate the slide normally. I had to go put the edge of the slide on a piece of wood and press down HARD to get the slide to cycle to eject the round. I inspected the round to see if there were any defects or possibly the case not being crimped properly but everything looked normal. Both of these rounds I put back in the mag racked the slide and they both feed fine, went off and ejected normally so I really do not think it was ammo related. All of these rounds were factory ammo. The first range session consisted of 100 Blazer Aluminum cased rounds and 50 rounds from Double Tap Ammo. The second range session was 100 rounds of Double Tap. 50 180gr Controlled Expansion JHP and 50 200gr Controlled Expansion JHP.

After this last session I took the gun down again and it was basicly clean. Really no more flakes (and when I say flakes really tiny not like big peices of metal). The gun was hardly fouled at all. And I inspected all of the parts to look for any obvious signs of damage. Everything looks normal. I also visually looked at the mags and they seem fine as well. I did not put a caliper to them but they look identical and no obvious damage to the feed lips.

So has anyone else had any issues like this with a break in? One of my shooting buddies thinks I should just shoot some more rounds through it and I will but how long can I expect this to continue if this is normal?

The vertical flip is usually a problem with the recoil spring being too light and the slide is outrunning the mags. Or the mag springs are too weak and again the slide is outrunning the mag. Also, not that you did, but if you lube your mag for what ever reason the round can come out due to inertia, they come out during recoil and not from the slide stripping off the round and resulst is the vertical round deal. This also can happen if the mag spring are too light. It's a strange malfunction but it does happen. Somewhere on here I posted a pic of it happening.

Not going into battery the last 1/4 inch can be a chamber that has debris in it, or a really tight chamber. Or the extractor that is too tight can also cause it. (Taking for granted the ammo is fine)

The slide locking back too early could be you accidently bumping the slide stop. I have seen rounds as they come up sometimes bump the slide stop too. You might want to check how close the rounds are to the slide stop. I could be that some material will need taken off the slide stop.

That is all I can think of right now. I'm sure many others will chime it with great ideas.

Tim

Edited January 4, 2010 by tpcdvc

[tpcdvc]

Also, the last 1/4 inch thing could be a tight barrel fit and will go away with more rounds down range.

[Resjudicata]

I haven't bought a Dan Wesson in a while. (Still have one) However, they are known as very tight guns. If you go to the Dan Wesson section of the 1911 forum you can read up in great detail about the guns and any break in issues others have had.

Are the mags the ones that came with the gun? What brand are they?

What kind and weight of oil are you using? What is the temp where you were shooting?

Have you checked the tension on the extractor? Have you checked the bottom of the extractor to make sure it is properly rounded?

I think you may be seeing an issue with the extractor tension and the fitting of the groove the case head fits into. The slide may also be running slow due to a very tight fit.

If my memory is correct I remember guys saying they had to put 500 or so rounds down range in breaking in their DW's. I'm not saying it is right that you have to do that with a new gun but some guys did.

Chris

[Bear23]

I had one of these. Nice gun, but it was very tight. it would not feed some 10mm ammo reliably, PMC, hornady.

Once i put 500 rounds through it, it functioned better. They have very tight chambers, i polished the lower portion of the chamber and ramp on the barrel. I did not remove any metal, only polished. this took care of the problem.

good luck. They make a nice carry gun.

[DWFAN]

The stuck round sounds like the bullet could be hitting the rifling and sticking. What are the length's of the rounds you're shooting ? Is it just with one of the brands you've tried or with all of them ?

I had some WWB 9mm that were just barely too long and hung up in my PM-9 when it was new. Havent had any problems again, and have 1K trouble free rounds since. (mainly shooting reloads and Federal now)

My Valor is very picky about ammo right now, Im still working on it. Have right at 300 rounds through it and has feeding issues with LSWC ammo that my CBOB feeds just fine.

If you can try some other mags and check the extractor and those dont work, give Dan Wesson a call. They'll work with you to figure out the issue.

[Mr. 10mm]

My SS gun is a Dan Wesson Point Man Aussie in 10mm that I've had for years. Initially it had issues going fully into battery. I found the extractor was too tight and adjusting it helped, but occasionally I would continue to experience the same problem (usually at a match and at the worst time). Finally out of desparation I removed the full length guide rod and the problem completely went away. I have been shooting it with a mil-spec rod ever since and it continues to serve me well.

Your other issues may be magazine related. Mec-Gar makes a decent flush fit 8-round mag for the 10mm's.

Best of luck!

[barney88pdc]

The mag are the factory mags that came with the gun. The oil I use is Miltec I have not had any issues with it in my STI. The weather was probaby about 45 maybe 50 degres Saturday so I do not think that the oil was gummed up due to low temp. I am interested to check the tension on the extractor but I am not familiar how to do that. When the rounds got suck they both ejected when I was able to rack the slide so the extractor had to be in the groove of the case head for that to happen correct? Maybe it was in the groove and the tension was so much that it would push the round into the side of the chamber and not allow it to go completely into battery? The Slide to frame fit is pretty tight. But I put the slide and barrel on the frame and I could work the slide back and fourth very easily without any resistance. (I left the spring and guide rod out just to see if I could feel any resistance). When I did go to take the gun back down to put the guide rod and spring in I did have a little trouble getting the slide off. It was like the barrel dropped a little and put something in a bind. I did take the factory spent case and it went in and out of the chamber pretty easy. I was just seeing if it would be very tight for me to pull out but it was really not an issue. As far as the ammo the two rounds that "jammed" the slide just out of battery were both Double Tap Nickel cased ammo. On the second round that locked the slide I compared it to another round in the box and just eyeballing it, it did seem like it was set back in the case some. I know I probably should not have put it back in the gun but as stated before it feed and fired fine so possibly the round jamming into the rifling might have some merrit.

[Resjudicata]

The round(s) that looked shorter and didn't go into battery sounds like it was the ammo rather than the gun but I can't tell for sure without having been there. If the bullet was pushed down in the case it can bulge the sides of the case a bit. Then when you drew it back out you shaved of or smoothed the brass enough that it chambered the second time. Not sure without seeing it first hand.

It could still be the magazines, too. If you know anyone in the area with a 10mm single stack I would suggest asking to borrow a magazine or two to try in your gun.

For the extractor, Brazos has an article about extractors here:

http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/ejection%20perfection.htm

It shows a photo of what it looks like to round off the bottom of the extractor so the case head slides underneath the extractor easily. When you have the bottom edge rounded off you need to adjust the tension of the extractor. When the case head doesn't get extra friction from a squared edge on the extractor then you can run more tension and the round still slides under it easily. For tension you want the extractor to be able to hold a loaded round under it while you jiggle the slide up and down as if trying to dislodge the round from under the extractor. Do this with the slide off the gun and the barrel out of the slide, obviously.

I suggest working on the extractor and then shooting again to see how it runs. For me most of any issues I've had with feeding a 1911 based gun has ended up being extractor issues.

Chris

[barney88pdc]

Chris thanks for the suggestions and link. I took the gun apart and read the articles suggestions. It appears that the extractor has been tuned. It has the rounded edges on the bottom and a round does stay under the extractor with the slide off the gun and the barrel out. Following all of the recomendations of the Brazo's article it seems to my untrained eye that everything checks out. I guess I just need to load up some rounds and shoot a few hundred more and see what happens. By working the slide by hand it is defenately smoother than when I first got it. At this point from the suggestions I have recieved I think the only other thing might be the mags. The recoil spring is defenately not light, I think I read that it comes with a factory 24# spring. Possibly the mag springs are too light but they were pretty hard to load the last round so I am not sure.

Right now I am at a loss. I do not think I can damage anything by continuing to shoot it. I plan on running another 500-1000 throught it and if it continues to have problems then I think I will contact DW.

[Resjudicata]

Well, crap. I guess I was no help.

Maybe take your digital camera (if you have one) with you when you shoot. Take a pic of any jams you have to show inside the ejection port. That way maybe folks can help more. If you still have jams I'd bet on the magazine but unfortuately it's going to be hard to say without seeing the result of the jam.

Maybe also try a slightly lighter recoil spring. 24# seems kinda heavy even for a 10mm but maybe not. I have a couple CZs that will have nose up jams if the recoil spring is too heavy. Maybe the gun doesn't cycle all the way to the rear and the magazine can't keep up.

Shoot the hell out of it and let us know what happens.

Chris

[DWFAN]

Good info here. If its keeps up, I would still call DW before filing or changing much besides a mag. It sucks sending something back, but they pay for shipping and hopefully fix the issue.

[tpcdvc]

The mag are the factory mags that came with the gun. The oil I use is Miltec I have not had any issues with it in my STI. The weather was probaby about 45 maybe 50 degres Saturday so I do not think that the oil was gummed up due to low temp. I am interested to check the tension on the extractor but I am not familiar how to do that. When the rounds got suck they both ejected when I was able to rack the slide so the extractor had to be in the groove of the case head for that to happen correct? Maybe it was in the groove and the tension was so much that it would push the round into the side of the chamber and not allow it to go completely into battery? The Slide to frame fit is pretty tight. But I put the slide and barrel on the frame and I could work the slide back and fourth very easily without any resistance. (I left the spring and guide rod out just to see if I could feel any resistance). When I did go to take the gun back down to put the guide rod and spring in I did have a little trouble getting the slide off. It was like the barrel dropped a little and put something in a bind. I did take the factory spent case and it went in and out of the chamber pretty easy. I was just seeing if it would be very tight for me to pull out but it was really not an issue. As far as the ammo the two rounds that "jammed" the slide just out of battery were both Double Tap Nickel cased ammo. On the second round that locked the slide I compared it to another round in the box and just eyeballing it, it did seem like it was set back in the case some. I know I probably should not have put it back in the gun but as stated before it feed and fired fine so possibly the round jamming into the rifling might have some merrit.

I think the mags are likely the prob. I'm really loving my tripp 10mm mags. They are rock solid!!

BTW here is that pic I mentioned.

Edited January 5, 2010 by tpcdvc

[barney88pdc]

Range Report

Loaded up my first Reloads of 10mm today. I was throwing 6.1gr of VV350 under a 180gr JHP MG, Starline brass, Wolf LP. They felt more like 40 than 10.

I had a few failure to fires (Totally my fault I did notice that sometimes I would try to index the shellplate and it would drag. I would press the handle (550B) forward again and no more resistance). I was using a buddies press for the first time and did not have the feel for his press like I do mine. I did not want to adjust my dies that are set up for my STI so I just went over and used his press and extra set of dies. All of those loads went BANG on the second strike so I attribute that to primers that were not fully seated. The second problem we had were some failure to feeds but I would say 90% or more were the last round of the mag. The rounds would feed partially into the chamber but not the entire way. I would say the bullet was all the way in where we could not see it. So I think that it is possibly a mag issue even though these are the factory mags. I could be wrong on that but before the failure to feeds were happening at random intervals. The other thing that it think is more than likely is I think that the loads needed a little more crimp. I usually crimp a lil more but did not want to adjust his setup.

I had loaded 300 rounds and on about the last 4 mags I started having the same as described above failure to feeds in the middle of the mag. I think we had about 3 or so. When I locked open the slide and I picked up the back of the round with my index finger to get the catrtage to allign in the chamber and I pushed in to the chamber with my finger it felt a little gritty so I think by this time the Match Chamber was just getting fouled.

The slide NOT locking back on the last round seems to have corrected itself. I do not remember a single mag that the slide did not lock back on the last round. I had my buddy that let me borrow his press come to the range and help me shoot about half of the rounds. So not all of the failures happend while I was driving. Curtis jump in here at any time and thanks for the press time.

I also had 8 Double TAP Bonded Defense rounds with me that I took out of the mag when we arrived. On the last 4 mags we loaded the first 2 rounds with the DT then topped off with the reloads. I can tell you it was not hard to know when you were down to one more round. They defenately had more mustard behind them. One of these rounds did the jam with the bullet sticking straight up (And I brought a camera and forgot to take a damn pic what a dumb***). Another round of the DT jammed cocked up like the reloads were doing on the last round out of the mag. I might buy a Tripp mag to try out. I was reading on the 1911 forum that someone on there recommened them as an aftermarket mag and had good success and the factory mags that came with the gun were not as reliable.

SSSSSSOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo

I took the gun down once I got home and gave it a good cleaning and another generous offering of Militec. I also sprayed some cleaner down the barrel and passed a brush in the chamber and down the barrel a few times. So if my theroy of a dirty chamber being correct, or atleast partially correct should be solved. My next plan is to go back to the range with some DT defense loads and see if the failure to feeds are now down to just the last round in the mag. (Which would still suck but I feel I am making progress and new mags if that is the problem is an easy fix). The gun now has a total of just over 550 rounds down the pipe so I think it should be broke in by now. I was reading on the 1911 forum that another guy had a similar problem and he found the extractor was riding the slide a little and I think one place on the slide. He took some polishing compound to is with a dremel just polishing not taking any materal off with a disk or anything and he said that fixed his problems. So by me running rounds I figure I am doing the same thing polishing the high spots. I also had worked the slide by hand probabaly 200 times before this last session. And the fit is very tight.

In closing it seems like some of the problems have went away but this was with some powder puff loads compared to the DT and that is the ammo I really need it to run reliable for the gun to fit the purpose I bought it for. So I might give it another acid test tomorrow with the full power DT and report back. If the only thing that happens is feeding problems on the last round I will consider that a win. Fingers Crossed.

Edited January 7, 2010 by barney88pdc

[Anthony Lombardo]

DW discontinued 10mm this year.

Pretty sure I know why.

To fix your gun. get a 22 # recoil spring and 25 (yes 25) pound officers hammer spring from Wolff and an EGW or Wilson square bottom firing pin stop. Get a Colt, Metalform or Tripp 10mm magazine.

With a less than 5" gun, Silvertips are as hot as I would go.

[Resjudicata]

If you are wondering about your crimp there is an easy way to make sure that isn't hanging you up. Take your barrel out and drop each loaded round into the chamber. It should drop all the way in so that the case head is flush with the barrel hood and fall out on its own when you tip the barrel upside down. If the rounds won't do this then check your crimp, load length and make sure the bullet isn't bulging the case out too much. Once you get the rounds to drop in and out easily then your load length and crimp shouldn't be the problem.

I'm with you that the magazines sound like the problem. The mags that came with my 45 DW's weren't great either. I think for the money charged CZ should probably look for a different magazine vendor like Tripp.

BTW, I also had to replace the slide stop on my CBOB. It would activate at odd times and even dimpling it like I do on my Limited gun didn't solve the problem. I replaced it with a Wilson part and the problem went away.

Chris

[barney88pdc]

I shot 33 rounds yesterday and 27 rounds today all with the DT full power loads. Twice yesterday and twice today the slide locked open with rounds in the gun. Yesterday I was in a bit of a hurry so I just racked the slide and kept on going. But today I had a little more time and inspected what was going on. Both occasions the slide stop was engaged. So Chris I may have the same issue as you where I might need a new slide stop. I was looking around on Midway and they do not list a 10mm slide stop. Only 45 ACP, 9mm, 38 Super. Both slide stops this morning were after round 7 fired. Not sure if it was the same mag. (I know that would help).

On the positive side I have not had a single failure to feed in all of those rounds. Only the 4 slide locks at inappropriate times. So I am thinking it has to be either the mag or the slide stop? I marked the mags 1 and 2 when I got home (I had done this but the ink came off when I cleaned them) so I can tell if this only happens with one mag.

I did look at and feel the slide stop inside of the gun and it does seems to protude out some but I know that it has to in order for the follower to engage the stop for it to work. However, I not being a 1911 gunsmith I do not know if it is an excess amount.

Well all of this has been somewhat aggrevating but I am learning and alot of the problems seem to have corrected themself. I WILL GET THIS GUN WORKING IT HAS BECOME A MISSION.

[Resjudicata]

Glad to hear that the feeding problems seem to be going away.

IMHO you are making a wise choice in working with the gun to get it running. In the end you will be happy with this gun once it is 100% and you will learn some things along the way.

If you take the slide off and then install the slide stop in the frame you can then insert a mag with and without rounds so you can see if the slide stop is really close to the bullets in the mag. Also, when you insert the empty mag you can see how much of the slide stop engages the mag follower. You can try dremeling some of the slide stop where it contacts the mag follower to get rid of some extra material but still leave enough to engage the mag follower every time. For me, none of this worked. I could not figure out what about the factory slide stop was out of spec but something was. When I replaced it with the Wilson part the problem went away.

BTW, this thread got me thinking about my neglected CBOB and I took it out and shot it yesterday. Boy, that trigger was heavy compared to what I'm used to with my competition guns. I came home and immediately took some weight off the sear and trigger spring. Now it feels a little better.

Chris