Night Sights

[DogmaDog]

OK, I know this isn't really the place to discuss "tactical" stuff. I also did a search for previous posts about night sights, and read a few snippets. However, I also feel I'm likely to get better opinions here because I know you're all better shooters than the yokels on regular gun sites.

I'm looking into some night sights for my Kahr P9 that I will start carrying as soon as I get my permit. I just wanted your opinions:

Are night sights even worth it? Are they bright enough to see in situations that are merely "dim", like near a streetlamp, which seems to be more likely than truly dark situations?

Is one brand of nightsight clearly superior to another (I've seen elsewhere that Trijicon and ICI (?) are makers of tritium "lamps", and people seem to think the ICI lamps are inferior to the Trijicons for some reason)?

For regular day use, I prefer black on black sights. For night sights, I think I would like a tritium dot front without a white outline, and either no rear, or just a bar or single dot rear. What do you think? Why?

Can you narrow front sights or widen rear sights with tritium inserts?

Finally, specific models:

Novak bar dot

Heinie "Straight Eight" Night sights

MMC bar dot "light sights"

Any opinions on any of these three models?

Thanks much,

DogmaDog

[tightloop]

AThread drift mode ON

I had the first set of Night Sights in Houston. They came from Self Powered Lighting, somewhere in NY State. U shaped around the notch and a standard dot in the front sight. Only thing was it was Strontium, with a 50yr half life. These came back from installation with a note from the NRC telling you that if you ever wanted to have children, not to leave your pistol sitting on your lap for extended periods...

That was in I think '81 or so and I still have that gun. They look like aircraft landing lights even now..

[David Benzick]

You're correct that this forum is for discussion of competative shooting. However, at the risk of offending the members I will toss this thought to you. In my opinion, night sites are usefull only for lighting conditions where you can identify the threat but need help picking up your sights. A small window indeed, if it even exists. If you feel it's necessary to place your sites on a target, you'd better be damn sure the target needs shooting, and that requires proper lighting.

I do have pistols with night sites on them and I wish I had the money to spend elsewhere. If you're going to spend the money anyway, I prefer the Novak bar dot system.

Best to you.

Dave

[Flexmoney]

We have a set of Tru-Glo (Meprolight) sights on the Glock 20. They are a 3 dot system. Nice and bright. Solid built. These could likely be opened up "enough" on the rear. I don't think I would thin the front down on them though...not too much extra material to play with.

We have a set of Novak's on a G17. Bar-dot system. The bar-dot is much less cluttered. I am fairly certain that Novak uses Trijicon brand of viles for the glow part of their sights. You can widen the rear notch on these all day long.

I don't have Heinie nite sights, but do use their Slant Pros on my competition G35. I like them for that. They do rust easy.

My chioce for a hard-use gun that would serve to carry would be the Novak bar-dot.

[Wakal]

I like self-luminous sights for dusk/night/dawn work. My current carry gun has a MMC adjustable "Novak" style rear sight with a Tritium bar, matched to a Wilson night-eyes Tritium front sight.

Haven't managed to break it yet.

Alex

[Flexmoney]

DD,

I was just over on GlockTalk...there are lots of threads on this very subject. Worth a look.

[Sam]

OK, I'm only posting this because the winter nights get long and so I play around with night shooting now and then. I'm not talking tactical, just fun. I've got a Novak Tritium front on my Browning Hi-Power, nice round vial of the glowing green stuff. There is a very small horizontal bar in the rear that the dot can rest on for elevation at night. Night sights are really great fun!

In my opinion, the front sight is worth about 10 times as much as the back sight. I like the dot-over-bar or the Heinie Straight Eight, dot-over-dot system. Lining up the 3 dot systems is not something I like to do. Kill the white outline around the front dot and ink in the tritium vial with a black marks-alot, then you have a normal looking sight in the daytime. But at night, the tritium glows right through the marker ink. Practice with a Sure-fire light too. Cool beans!

[EricW]

Don't believe the naysayers about night sights, they work fine. All modern night sight are very bright - which wasn't the case about 15 years ago. Now the "problem" is that the sights are damned near too bright for some applications. Virtually any brand-name sight will be plenty bright for street carry. Unless you're bolting them onto a comped 454, you will not lose the sights due to flash blindess.

If you plan on carrying in the dark dark, you may want to find an older set of sights since once you're dark adapted, new night sights are blindingly bright. I pulled my 45 with brand-new Novaks in the woods once and the whole top of my gun glowed green. The dots were so bright it was almost physically uncomfortable to look at them. This isn't a consideration for 99.99% of concealed carry applications, but you do need to be cognizant of how bright the sights are if you ever have to go whactical. If the bad guy(s) you're up against is dark adapted, he may well see your sights if he's behind you. (Do not let that dissuade you from buying the sights. I wouldn't have a carry gun without them.)

[Singlestack]

I won a set of XS Sight Systems at a match and stuck them on my G20. I was not sure if I would like them when I first looked at them, but after a few trips to the range I think they are pretty cool. Anybody else tried them?

They look real good in the dark. I'm thinking about a set for my XD9 now.

[kimel]

I have night sights on my Kimber CDP that I carry. I love them. Probably the most useful feature is the ability to locate the gun on the nightstand quickly in the dark.

In playing around with them I think they are far more useful in low light situations than in total darkness. You have to find your target but then you just line up the dots appropriately and there you go.

[rhino]

Are night sights even worth it?  Are they bright enough to see in situations that are merely "dim", like near a streetlamp, which seems to be more likely than truly dark situations?

The quick answer to your question is, "Yes." In my opinion, they are definitely worth it. Some people prefer having the tritium insert only in their front sight too.

Adding to that, if you're going to carry a gun, you need to always have a flashlight with you too. A SureFire, Streamlight Scorpion, or something similar will do nicely and are compact enough to carry all the time.

There are lighting conditions (such a full moonlight) when you can identify threats, but can't see your sights. In those situations (where the light is very diffuse), night sights alone can make all the difference in the world. On the other hand, night sights and flashlights are complementary technologies. There are situations where either will do alone, but few where having both won't be better.

This is all applicable to competition as well. Night shoots and indoor stages with low light conditions are not uncommon in IDPA circles. I don't know if they still do it, but in 1997 there were several indoor, low light stages at the Single Stack Classic. I wish I'd had night sights then!

Is one brand of nightsight clearly superior to another (I've seen elsewhere that Trijicon and ICI (?) are makers of tritium "lamps", and people seem to think the ICI lamps are inferior to the Trijicons for some reason)?

I don't think so. In addition, there aren't that many companys that are legally certified to install the vials in sights. You'll find that although there are many brands and configurations, most of them get their inserts from the same 2-3 companies.

For regular day use, I prefer black on black sights.  For night sights, I think I would like a tritium dot front without a white outline, and either no rear, or just a bar or single dot rear.  What do you think?  Why?

I think the best setup is either bar-dot, or one dot in each (like Heinie's Straight Eight sights). If you have to go with three dots, get a different color in the back with green in the front. You want to be able to put your focus on the front sight, so you can see why having the insert in just the front would be a good thing.

Can you narrow front sights or widen rear sights with tritium inserts?

Once the vials are inserted, I doubt if you want to do that. If you want a narrow front sight, get it narrowed before you have the inserts installed. PT Night Sights custom installation shop will do them in sights down to 0.100 inches wide. The shop in Michigan that does it for Trijicon will go down o 0.090 inches, I think.

PT will also do a 0.100 sight for you and I think Les Baer has one of that width as well.

Finally, specific models: 

Novak bar dot

Heinie "Straight Eight" Night sights

MMC bar dot "light sights"

Any opinions on any of these three models?

Personal preference! I have Bar-Dot on a few guns and straight eights on one.

[SJ]

I won a set of XS Sight Systems at a match and stuck them on my G20. I was not sure if I would like them when I first looked at them, but after a few trips to the range I think they are pretty cool. Anybody else tried them?

I also won a set and picked the smaller front (I forget the name) for my Glock 29. They are excellent quality and work well. I do notice the XS front is somewhat dimmer than the Trijicons I had on there earlier, even though the XS were new and the Trijs 3 years old at the time. I do like the big front dot for daytime use, albeit with a little coarseness at longer ranges.

For me I'm leaning towards a dim front sight only. I use front and rear Trijicons on my other carry Glocks but I'm now thinking they are too bright for me. I go into the bathroom, completely dark, and after getting only a little dark adapted, I can see the green glow off my skin in the mirror...

[EricW]

For me I'm leaning towards a dim front sight only. I use front and rear Trijicons on my other carry Glocks but I'm now thinking they are too bright for me. I go into the bathroom, completely dark, and after getting only a little dark adapted, I can see the green glow off my skin in the mirror...

I think the current brightness of night sights is partly a warranty thing and a lot of marketing. I think in the beginning everyone cupped their hand over their gun or went in the bathroom for 8 1/2 seconds and said "well these blow" and that was how we evaluated a "good" night sight. We just don't realize how sensitive our eyes are once we dark adapt.

I actually got lucky and was able to trade a GSSF Glock armorer a set of brand new Meps for an older set of Trijicons - for reasons besides just the brightness. I definitely got the better end of the deal.

[Loves2Shoot]

Adding to that, if you're going to carry a gun, you need to always have a flashlight with you too. A SureFire, Streamlight Scorpion, or something similar will do nicely and are compact enough to carry all the time.

There are lighting conditions (such a full moonlight) when you can identify threats, but can't see your sights. In those situations (where the light is very diffuse), night sights alone can make all the difference in the world. On the other hand, night sights and flashlights are complementary technologies. There are situations where either will do alone, but few where having both won't be better.

Can you narrow

Major drift.

I don't think night sights are neccesary for anyone except possibly law enforcement, but then they usually have lights and lots of them. If you have a light you can see your sights. If you can't hit a your target without sites the threat is probably not close enough to be a real threat or you are not competent enough to be carrying at night.

There is a certain cool factor to night sites, but once you pull the trigger once at night it takes awhile to see your sights again anyway because of the friggin' huge flash from your gun.

Better to spend your money on ammo and dry firing.

Just my 2 cents.

[Flexmoney]

I like the idea of spending the money on ammo and training.

I also like the night-sights though.

I have shoot a couple night matches. They were a plus. They do make it easy to find the gun in the dark (night-stand).

[rhino]

I don't think night sights are neccesary for anyone except possibly law enforcement, but then they usually have lights and lots of them. If you have a light you can see your sights. If you can't hit a your target without sites the threat is probably not close enough to be a real threat or you are not competent enough to be carrying at night.

Why would LEOs need them and not anyone else? That doesn't make any sense.

And as far as threats being close . . . you still need to be able to see your sights if possible.

There is a certain cool factor to night sites, but once you pull the trigger once at night it takes awhile to see your sights again anyway because of the friggin' huge flash from your gun.

In my experience (both in shooting classes and competitions), this is not true. The effects of muzzle flash are grossly overstated by many. The problem I did notice is that if you use a light, smoke from your previous rounds is the biggest problem because it reflects and scatters your light like fog does to your car's headlights. Avoid lead reloads with lots of smokey bullet lube at night!

Better to spend your money on ammo and dry firing.

It's not an "either/or" situation. You can have night sights, a light, AND practice too. The cost of night sights compared to long term ammo expenses is negligible.

[tightloop]

they have very little use in the day to day context of competitive shooting, but the first time you have a real night shoot, they will pay for themselves 100 times.

I always had my backup gun with night sights in case of a surprise night shoot.

[Flexmoney]

We'd better steer this back to the topic (and not the debate on tactics).

DD asked some specific questions. Lets match the answers to those questions.

[DogmaDog]

Thanks guys.

All the "night firing" training I've received in the military was with regular old sights, and either ambient illumination, or those crazy parachute flares. I remember on occasion seeing a dim target, and then the pitch black silhouette of aligned sights in the muzzle flash when the gun went off. That was pretty cool.

The flash was a dull orange, not a bright white, and I don't think it did much to my night vision.

I just pulled out my Kahr in my darkened bedroom, and felt there was enough light that I could see a moving humanoid (though identifying him/her and assessing intent would be difficult), but I couldn't really see my sights!

So it seems like I oughta splurge and get a set of night sights. Especially since my wife and I live in New Orleans, go on walks in the evening, often along the river levee, which seems safer than other places to walk, but not necessarily safe...and pretty dark, too.

Rhino, good point about light. I got a Surefire as a "war trophy" from my recent deployment to Iraq. Just need batteries.

I'm leaning toward the Novak bar dot for the sights, but a lone Trijicon front is up for consideration, too.

Semper Fi,

DD

[Sam]

Two Alpha on that moderatin' Flexman!

And I sure don't want to "go tactical" here, but when something goes "bump in the night", I do like my gun (on the night stand) to be easier to find than my pants.

[EricW]

'Cause they are the only one that should be running around searching for bad guys in the dark, us regular folks should just turn on all the lights and hole up somewhere instead of looking for trouble.

[Trying to avoid Tactical Whactical Mode ON]

Speaking as someone who has actually had more than one close encounter after sunset, that just isn't possible. A lot of times, you're just on your own and have to get yourself out of the hole the best way you know how.

I'll avoid the war stories, but been there - done that - got the T-shirt.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic....

FWIW, I think Trijicons have the best ratio between the front sight and rear notch. The Meprolight front sights are fatter and take up too much of the rear notch for my taste.

[Nik Habicht]

I loved the mepro-lights and had them on all six Glocks --- until I decided to try Bo-Mars on the main competition G34. After that they were too fat --- and have either been replaced by Bo-Mars on the game guns or by Heinie's Straight Eight night sights on the house guns. I picked the Heinie's because they had the front post/rear notch relationship that was closest to the Bo-Mars.