Power Factor Too Low?

[JasonK]

(admin note:) I split Jasons post out of another thread and put it here...for, topic specific, discussion.

First let me state that I shoot mostly IDPA and a little IPSC/USPSA. My home range puts on the IDPA matches so that is why I shoot mostly IDPA. I feel that any shooting you do will aid you in a what-if situation, be that IPSC or IDPA or even NRA. Any gun handling you get is good.

That said I don't shoot IDPA for "Tactical Training" like some. I compete to win! That's why it's called competition in my opinion. I shoot a 40 cal pistol loaded to 130pf. I want every competitive advantage I can get. If anyone is interested my load is a 170gr semi-wadcutter over 3.1gr of Titegroup. If I'm shooting an IPSC match then I load up to major pf for the scoring advantage.

My earlier post was a response to kraut that wasn't quite clear. I'll try again. I realize this in not an entirely accurate assessment of available factory calibers. For the sake of time I did not do an exhaustive comparison of all manufacturers. Maybe I will get that bored sometime. If you will allow me to discuss only Remington/UMC ammunition I will try to make a point.

The IDPA rulebook states:

"Defensive Pistol shooting as a sport is quite simply the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated "real world" self-defense scenarios."

Notice the words full charge? Why then are the power factors set as low as they are? 357Sig, 40S&W, 45ACP and 10mm all make the CDP power factor. 40, 45 and 10 are all well above the power factor. Certainly no one would argue that UMC ammunition is loaded hot. Imagine what the S&B ammo power factors at!

If the goal is truely "... to compete with "service type" ammunition, not light target ammunition..." then the IDPA power factors need some revision.

Until then I will shoot my "gamer" loads.

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread, especially with such a long post. Thanks all.

JK

Edited December 8, 2003 by Flexmoney

[TRG65]

Here's one reason.

The goal of a minimum pf is also based on what is considered the minimum calibers for a certain division. Win white box from a stock G-17 will come out about 130 or just a little over. Someone told me some factory 38 loads don't even get to the 125 mark, I find this difficult to believe but acceptable.

The powerfactors are set so an individual can go get off the shelf ammo and compete with an off the shelf gun. The 9mm and 38 special have been designated the minimum service calibers, and the pf set accordingly.

Also I don't remember exactly and don't really feel like looking it up (I've been studing for law finals and am being very lazy for a while), but I don't even think the ammo must make pf from your gun, but the rule is something like the gun with the longest available barrel for the division. So to increase the gaming possibilties if you shoot a G-22 and the ammo only makes 122, but makes 126 from a G-35, I think your legal. Maybe Bill or one of the other SO instructors can verify this.

How the calibers and gun types have been split up is a totally different and useless discussion unless you have access to a member of the BoD who might have some ablity to make and really that probably wouldn't do you much good.

[Mayonaise]

Don't assume factory ball will make PF. Two years ago when we were chronoing ammo prior to the IDPA Nationals the S&B 9mm ammo one shooter had on hand failed to make the 125pf. That was out of a G17, G19 and a Springfield 5" 1911 in 9mm.

If they change PF it won't bother me any. I shoot 185pf in 1911 using 230gr Rainiers.

[bman]

Power factor also is effected by the temp. outside. You can loose 50 to 100 fps in the winter. If you have a load that is close but does make it when it is 90 outside it will proably not make it when it is 30. We do not chrono at our club matches. I figure if you have to win bad enough to shoot under power factor you really did not win anyway.

[JasonK]

bman, that would be small consolation if one were to come in a close second to such a person.

As far as powerfactors go both .40 and 10mm can easily make the CDP power factor. If CDP is intended to be a single-stack 1911 only class then it would be nice to have a class where those who wish to shoot such calibers can compete on a level playing field. Of course the easiest thing to do would be to allow those calibers that make CDP powerfactor to compete in CDP. Somehow I don't hold much hope for that.

[Duane Thomas]

If CDP is intended to be a single-stack 1911 only class

It's not. It's a .45 ACP only division, action type notwithstanding. At the risk of being excruciatingly pedantic (he says excruciatingly pedantically) class refers to your ranking (Marksman, Sharpshooter, etc.), division is the type of gun you're shooting (CDP, SSP, etc.).

[Steve Moneypenny]

my 4" 38 doesn't make power factor with a lot of factory ammo so I'm sure snubbie's don't, but they are viable carry guns and backup guns.

HTRneck, thats an interesting point but at nationals 2002 they did chronno rounds. but it was easy to stick in a different round if you wanted ( i know some who did) but i didn't because i didn't even attend.

shoot your loads and take the gamer ribbings with pride and poise, and if you can win the match!

where i shoot i'm very lucky to have a group of masters that shoot those clubs, bill nesbitt, ken hackathorn, rob haught, bill gardner, roger tate, lil old me. and 3 or 4 others that show up at times.

as with every other sport you will notice this. The better the people are the less complaints and bs you have. upper level masters well they just don't have to prove things anymore.

[JasonK]

Mr. Thomas, you have me on the usage of division.

According to the rulebook:

CUSTOM DEFENSIVE PISTOL division is intended to offer a place in

competition for shooters using the "practical" custom 1911 style .45 single

stack pistols, while still allowing shooters using the various hi-capacity pistols

such as the Para-Ordnance, STI/SVI and Glock 20/21 to compete on equal

ground. There are many out-of-the-box 1911 style pistols that can be used

competitively in this division with little or no custom work.

If you notice it doesn't state that it is to offer a place for the .45 caliber round to be competitive. It seems to me to explicitly state that the intention is for a single stack .45 1911 division while having the concession to allow the high capacity 1911 style pistols but limiting them to single stack capacity.

I've gotten a little far afield on this topic. This originally started as a response to someone criticizing building S*I pistols to run at 135pf as not in the spirit of the IPSC founders.

I have a compulsion to play devil's advocate.

If the IDPA BOD truely wanted to force full power ammunition then the power factors could stand some revision. Ammo should have to make power factor out of the gun you are competing with. Perhaps the divisions could stand some tweaking.

What do you guys think?

[rwmagnus]

JasonK

I'm not sure the rule book needs tweaking or not. I prefer to keep it as simple as possible. CPD is a 165pf according to page 16 of the manual. I too think shooters should find a pet load giving them enough margin for error for different conditions. Seems simple if the pf is too low then you get DQ'd. I believe more local ranges should have a chrono. Problem is there are always too many ways to cheat so I still vote to keep the rules simple.

Many fail to remember IDPA is still a competition, not combat shooting or personal defense. For competition there is nothing wrong using the rules to gain all the advantage possible. It is a game and the objective is to win!

Not looking to stoke the devil's advocate JMO.

[Nick Weidhaas]

Lets face it, it is easier to control/shoot a gun with a lower pf. This is why you see more 9mm shooters in SSP and ESP. If they are not shooting 9mm, they are downloading other calibers to make the 130ish pf. Why, because they can shoot this caliber faster. I recently chronoed a bunch of factory 9mm ammo and it was between a 130 and 140pf. Folks who want to shoot a .357 sig, 40cal, or 10mm are at a disadvantage if they want to shoot factory ammo as the pf (recoil and muzzle flip) will be greater than 9mm. So you have two choices depending on what your goals are: If you in it for defensive firearms practice with your carry gun, shoot what you carry and be happy. If you are in it for the win and look at IDPA as a game, shoot 9mm or download your larger calibers to make the minimum pf.

I agree with JasonK in that it is good that IDPA grouped action types into divisions so that people shooting like guns would be shooting together. IMHO, where they missed the boat was not doing something about the pf issue, as setting the min pf for 9mm puts the folks who want to shoot larger diameter full power calibers at a disadvantage (unless they want to play the game and download). If the goal of IDPA was to have everyone shoot full power ammuntion, they missed the mark as everyone is not.

As they say, them are the rules.......you choose how you want to play the game.

My .02 Nick-