ESR questions

[bierman]

I just recently (about an hour ago) joined IDPA again after a 3 yr layoff. I am scheduled to shoot my first classifier in early Dec and so I was looking over the rulebook for info on ESR. From what I have read in the book, I can have two moonclip holders on my belt, directly in front of my holster, and one behind the holster. I could not find anything else in the rulebook about placement of moonclip holders. I am reading this correctly? Am I going to have to "switch over" to reload?

Thanks.

edited for spelling.

Edited November 12, 2009 by bierman

[Gregg K]

You can have a total of three moon clips on your belt. They all have to be behind your center line with the exception of up to 2 immediately in front of your holster. You can put just one or you can put 2 immediately in front of the holster and what ever remains of the three must be behind your center line, left, right or a mix doesn't mater so long as it's behind the center line.

Welcome back to ESR!

Rant mode on..

I put emphasis on the word immediately since most ESR shooters have trouble understanding this. It doesn't say that if you wear some gaming pants with 3 inch wide belt loops that you can put one in front of the holster and the next one on your belly button because of the spacing of the belt loops. Dress accordingly for your division so as to be able to put them immediately in front of your holster.

Rant mode off

[bierman]

Let me make sure I understand this. Do I HAVE TO put one immediately in front of my holster? Or can I put all three on my left side as long as they are behind the centerline? Reading the rule again, it says "May" put up to two in front, but it does not say I "Must" put one in front. Just want to make sure I understand this clearly.

Welcome back to ESR!

Thanks for the welcome and the information Gregg, but to clarify, when I did shoot IDPA in the past it was in SSP. This will be my first time with the wheelie (a 4" 625 JM). I shot an SC match with it last weekend and learned why most revo guys who shoot SC use 8 shooters instead of 6. I did not go into the match planning on missing, but that's just not the reality in my world. I did not do as well as I would have liked, but I learned a lot and met some great folks.

Edited November 12, 2009 by bierman

[Brian Gonsalves]

You may run 3 on the left side as long as they are behind your center line. That's were I carry mine, as I load weak-hand. Never could master the switching hands thing.

Have fun!

[Gregg K]

You may run 3 on the left side as long as they are behind your center line. That's were I carry mine, as I load weak-hand. Never could master the switching hands thing.

Have fun!

Yes, I should have made it clear that you don't have to put any in front of the holster, if the shooter wants to put them all behind the center line that is fine as well. When I used to load strong hand I ran 2 in front of the holster and 1 behind. Now that I load weak hand I still put 2 in front but but one behind the center line on my left. I find it easier to get to them in front of the holster rather than reaching behind the center line and I still have the option to load strong hand if necessary. In IDPA if you find yourself needing that third reload, you have probably already messed up the stage since you are going past the 18 round limit for a COF. Exceptions would be if you were required to do a reload with retention some where in the COF.

[bierman]

[ Exceptions would be if you were required to do a reload with retention some where in the COF.

That brings up another question. As a revo shooter, how often do you see this at a match? From what I gather the whole theory behind a RWR is that you don't want to leave ammo behind in a gunfight. A great idea, to be certain, but trying to load a partially spent moonclip back into the cylinder isn't very practical, even if I am behind cover during a "lull in the action". I know I would probably not have to reload a partial moonclip in a match, but I am curious about the RWR for revo shooters. How do guns running speedloaders deal with it?

[Dragoon]

[ Exceptions would be if you were required to do a reload with retention some where in the COF.

That brings up another question. As a revo shooter, how often do you see this at a match? From what I gather the whole theory behind a RWR is that you don't want to leave ammo behind in a gunfight. A great idea, to be certain, but trying to load a partially spent moonclip back into the cylinder isn't very practical, even if I am behind cover during a "lull in the action". I know I would probably not have to reload a partial moonclip in a match, but I am curious about the RWR for revo shooters. How do guns running speedloaders deal with it?

I competed at the Cherokee IDPA Wheelgun Championship this past May in Georgia. There were several stages that mandated RWRs (A useful skill IMHO that should be tested more often at matches). However, I've never experienced nor heard of a stage where you needed to reload the ammo that was retained.

[Gregg K]

I know I would probably not have to reload a partial moonclip in a match, but I am curious about the RWR for revo shooters. How do guns running speedloaders deal with it?

It's easy with a moon clip gun, just eject it into your hand and put it in a pocket. With speedloaders, some guys open the cylinder and tilt the gun up, the unfired cartridges will just dump in your hand so that you can stow those in a pocket, eject the empties and reload. The other way is to eject the whole mess into your hand and stow it all. You just have to be careful not to let the loaded rounds slip between your fingers. You don't see it often but there are enough match directors out there that will test the revolver shooters to see if they have the skills that it makes it worth practicing just in case.

[Bones]

However, I've never experienced nor heard of a stage where you needed to reload the ammo that was retained.

... that sounded like a request...

[Gregg K]

However, I've never experienced nor heard of a stage where you needed to reload the ammo that was retained.

... that sounded like a request...

Masimo, see what you have went and done.

Name the stage after Mass so everyone knows who to thank. "Canadian Revenge" or something like that.

[bierman]

However, I've never experienced nor heard of a stage where you needed to reload the ammo that was retained.

Now please keep in mind that I am a newbie at IDPA, so take my opinion for what its worth, but it kinda makes sense to me that if we are mandated to retain ammo in case we need it later, it would be a good idea to use that ammo on occasion. Seems kinda pointless to mandate RWR if you never make anyone use the retained ammo.

[Steve J]

Oh, what a bucket of worms.

[John Z Sr]

However, I've never experienced nor heard of a stage where you needed to reload the ammo that was retained.

... that sounded like a request...

Forget about it Craig, I'll get to Frank at the "Cup" before you do !!! You normally go SSR anyway, leave us ESR guys alone please

[Blueridge]

You may run 3 on the left side as long as they are behind your center line. That's were I carry mine, as I load weak-hand. Never could master the switching hands thing.

Have fun!

Yes, I should have made it clear that you don't have to put any in front of the holster, if the shooter wants to put them all behind the center line that is fine as well. When I used to load strong hand I ran 2 in front of the holster and 1 behind. Now that I load weak hand I still put 2 in front but but one behind the center line on my left. I find it easier to get to them in front of the holster rather than reaching behind the center line and I still have the option to load strong hand if necessary. In IDPA if you find yourself needing that third reload, you have probably already messed up the stage since you are going past the 18 round limit for a COF. Exceptions would be if you were required to do a reload with retention some where in the COF.

Maybe I missed something, but revolver shooters are not required to do reloads with retention. A reload with retention requires that the MAGAZINE be retained, and neither speedloaders or moonclips fit that description. When I was just starting in IDPA I asked about what revolver shooters do when the COF requires reload with retention, and I was told reload as you normally do.

I guess that the course of fire could require that unspent ammunition be retained, but that is not a reload with retention as defined in the rulebook. If there is documentation that I am not aware of, please enlighten me to it. I would hate to be penalized at a match for something I was unaware of.

[Steve J]

You may run 3 on the left side as long as they are behind your center line. That's were I carry mine, as I load weak-hand. Never could master the switching hands thing.

Have fun!

Yes, I should have made it clear that you don't have to put any in front of the holster, if the shooter wants to put them all behind the center line that is fine as well. When I used to load strong hand I ran 2 in front of the holster and 1 behind. Now that I load weak hand I still put 2 in front but but one behind the center line on my left. I find it easier to get to them in front of the holster rather than reaching behind the center line and I still have the option to load strong hand if necessary. In IDPA if you find yourself needing that third reload, you have probably already messed up the stage since you are going past the 18 round limit for a COF. Exceptions would be if you were required to do a reload with retention some where in the COF.

Maybe I missed something, but revolver shooters are not required to do reloads with retention. A reload with retention requires that the MAGAZINE be retained, and neither speedloaders or moonclips fit that description. When I was just starting in IDPA I asked about what revolver shooters do when the COF requires reload with retention, and I was told reload as you normally do.

I guess that the course of fire could require that unspent ammunition be retained, but that is not a reload with retention as defined in the rulebook. If there is documentation that I am not aware of, please enlighten me to it. I would hate to be penalized at a match for something I was unaware of.

Revolver shooters are required to do reloads with retention if the COF specifies it and if there are rounds in the cylinder and/or moon clip.

Appendix TWO - Approved IDPA Reloads

Failure to do an IDPA approved reload will result in a three (3)

second procedural penalty per infraction. Failure to do the reload

specified by the CoF will result in a three (3) second procedural

penalty or an FTDR. Failure to properly stow a partial magazine

or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with

Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a

procedural penalty. Tactical Reloads and Reloads with Retention

are interchangeable. See glossary for further details. When no

specific type of reload is specified, any approved reload may be

done at the shooter’s discretion.

Malfunction Clearing Exception: When clearing a malfunction,

the magazine or speedloader that may have caused the malfunction

does not need to be retained by the shooter and will incur no

penalty.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Steve J

[Blueridge]

Reload with Retention:

A) Dropping partial magazine from the gun

Stowing the partial magazine properly

C) Drawing spare magazine

D) Inserting spare magazine into the gun

It is not the "Reload with Retention" that requires the revolver shooter to retain the ammunition. It is the second part "Failure to do the reload required in the COF" that would cover making the revolver shooter retain the ammunition.

I am not against having to retain the ammunition as a revolver shooter. I just want it clear that I have to, and simply saying "reload with retention" does not do that without the caveat that revolver shooters must retain the unspent ammunition. I asked early into IDPA about this because it was unclear to me, and I went with the response that I received (At a state match). A course designer can require that ammunition be retained by revolver shooters, but without that requirement the rules to not CLEARLY require that.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Duane Thomas

[Steve J]

There are lots of misconceptions across the land, especially where SSR and ESR are concerned. I suggest you PM Bones, the Match Director for the S&W Indoor Nationals, and premier IDPA revolver shooters. He will set things straight.

[Blueridge]

No problem. As I stated earlier I just want to do things the correct way, and up until today I was under the belief that I was. I'm not so sure now.

Simply reading the descriptions of the reload types, they appear to be directed towards auto shooters. Clarification is always welcome, and is best documented somewhere officially.

Now I have to start practicing how best to catch the unspent rounds, while bringing to bear another speedloader. That raises another question for me of do I have to retain the speedloader that I am using to "charge" the revolver? If I loaded the revolver before start of the stage with a speedloader, do I have to store it if I know a reload with retention is going to be required? Or do I have to keep the speedloader that I "charge" the revolver with after I take the unspent rounds from the revolver to retain?

There is always going to be a magazine to retain with autos, but not a speedloader to retain with revolvers. If I make ready before the start of the stage loading without a speedloader (which I normally do), then I don't have speedloader to retain until the first reload.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Duane Thomas

[Jim Watson]

Revolvers are kind of the red headed stepchildren of competitive shooting these days, a lot of the rules mention them only as afterthoughts. The old rule book recommendation of a Tac - Load with a revolver as ejecting the contents of the cylinder, live and fired, into the hand and "dumping the whole mess in a pocket" is a good example of the attitude.

You CAN be required to do a Tac Load/RWR with a revolver, it is just that nearly all CoFs calling for a TL/RWR put it after six shots so the matter becomes moot for the sixgunner. Early days, I worked hard on trick revolver reloads before realizing that the capability was hardly ever called for.

There is NO requirement to retain a used speedloader at any time, it's EMPTY.

I have shot ONE sanctioned match with a stage requiring reuse of the ammunition retained after a TL/RWR. It was kind of a convoluted Standard, set up purely for that purpose. Again, it was based on six shot phases so the revolver users just went straight through while the autogunners fumbled in their pockets.

[Steve J]

Let's say you're shooting revolver. You have two targets from P1 and three targets from P2 and the area in between is not cover for reloading. Obviously, you can reload after the third target at P2, but it might be faster to do a reload with retention before leaving P1, so you can blast all 3 targets at P2 really quickly. That is none other than a reload with retention by choice by a revolver shooter.

Semantics don't count in IDPA. The intent is what counts.

[bierman]

Oh, what a bucket of worms.

Sorry Steve, I really did not intend that when I began this thread. Like so many others here, I am just seeking enlightenment.

[Hot Brass]

At the Cherokee Wheelgun match earlier this year there was a stage that required a RWR after 3 rounds. I dumped the half spent moonclip out of my 625 into my hand and dropped it into my holster, then grabbed a new moonclip and finished the stage. It was smooth and quick. Of course I did have to fish it out when the stage was over.

Another shooter put his half spent moonclip back into his holder. On the next stage he grabbed the half spent moonclip and could not get it in the gun. When he realized what he had done, he had to stow the half loaded clip and grab a full one. It blew his match. I made a mental note...

[nashvillebill]

We had one at the Southern Regional that was two paper, one steel,go around the corner, there was one paper through a port, then three more paper around another corner. I was going to do two RWRs, but it felt like I fumbled with my pocket too much on the first one so I made an audible to empty the gun and speed load at the last array. Probably a bad call looking back, should have stuck to my plan.

Just happen to have video, if anyone's interested. It's the second stage on this clip.

[SauconValley Shooter]

Good Morning,

I perform tactical reloads occasionally. I practice them for that reason. I agree with Steve in that I feel it is faster to do a tac reload and shoot three targets, then it is two shoot one or two targets, reload and finish the remaining targets.

A stage requiring the use of the stowed rounds would have to be set up just for that purpose. Why would anyone fumble with loose rounds or a partialy spent moon clip when they should have a third reload on their belt? In wheel gun world, we say that if you need your third reload, things are not going well. If you then need your stowed ammunition you are ... well, you know.

Ken

[Bones]

A stage requiring the use of the stowed rounds would have to be set up just for that purpose. Why would anyone fumble with loose rounds or a partialy spent moon clip when they should have a third reload on their belt?

Ken

Indeed it would. I seem to recall a rather unique stage during a match in Pennsylvania one year that required shooters to load loose ammunition out of a box - is that right? I would venture to think that perhaps a stage designer with such an obviously fertile imagination could well envision a COF requiring the use of previous stowed rounds, wouldn't he? I believe it was stage 10: http://www.idpa.com/matchresults/2008/2008_Independence.pdf , and I seem to recall it with a good deal of fondness.

John Z - While I have nothing but the utmost respect for Frank and the Carolina Cup, there are several months and many matches between now and then. Tell Cliff that all that time he spends playing with things in his pockets may be good practise.

Craig

Edited November 13, 2009 by Bones