outerlimits Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 just so i understand, we are holstering the frame, not anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 That's what he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 This has come up before on this forum. The ruling was no dropped gun and no breaking the 180. Once the barrel and slide fall off, your gun no longer has a muzzle. Which brings up a thread drift. If you have a plastic bag full of parts, ie. barrel, slide, ... frame, can you root through it without being accused of handling a firearm outside the safe area? Are some parts more "forbidden" than others? In particular, is a frame a gun under our rules? Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Dropped gun has nothing to do with 10.5.2, The muzzle of your gun is still the muzzle whether it is attached or not. 10.5.2 applies to at any time during the course of fire a competitor allows muzzle to point rearwards. This event happened during holster and I'd assume before range is clear command. There fore it was during the course of fire. No exception is made for improper assembly or weapon malfunctions. If the muzzle broke the 90 degree from the median intercept during the COF it is a Match DQ. An arbitration committee may decide under 11.1.2 that exceptional circumstances existed but that would be up to them. Who said anything about a dropped gun?!?! 10.5.2 applies to the muzzle of the gun that is in your control or not. In this case, the gun is still in the competitor's hand, in his control. As been ruled already by the RO, CRO during the situation and a member of NROI that it is not a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 If you have a plastic bag full of parts, ie. barrel, slide, ... frame, can you root through it without being accused of handling a firearm outside the safe area? Are some parts more "forbidden" than others? In particular, is a frame a gun under our rules? Glen Got $100, or the local max match fee? Willing to risk it in front of an arb committee? This IMHO has the potential to get ugly quickly --- at what point are you handling the gun? I'd argue that if the trigger's accessible, and all the parts needed to make it fire are in the bag, then you ought to be in the safety area.... What do you gain by not going there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 WOW!! All this cuz of a funny thing that happened to my buddy Ron... Wait till he hears this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 If you have a plastic bag full of parts, ie. barrel, slide, ... frame, can you root through it without being accused of handling a firearm outside the safe area? Are some parts more "forbidden" than others? In particular, is a frame a gun under our rules? Glen Got $100, or the local max match fee? Willing to risk it in front of an arb committee? This IMHO has the potential to get ugly quickly --- at what point are you handling the gun? I'd argue that if the trigger's accessible, and all the parts needed to make it fire are in the bag, then you ought to be in the safety area.... What do you gain by not going there? Wow, indeed. Not what I expected as a response. I would prefer a rules-based reply, thank you. The fifth sentence qualifies. You said, "This IMHO has the potential to get ugly quickly ---". Do you mean in terms of this forum, or of the rules as they now stand, or something else? Should I drop this question? Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 If you have a plastic bag full of parts, ie. barrel, slide, ... frame, can you root through it without being accused of handling a firearm outside the safe area? Are some parts more "forbidden" than others? In particular, is a frame a gun under our rules? Glen Got $100, or the local max match fee? Willing to risk it in front of an arb committee? This IMHO has the potential to get ugly quickly --- at what point are you handling the gun? I'd argue that if the trigger's accessible, and all the parts needed to make it fire are in the bag, then you ought to be in the safety area.... What do you gain by not going there? Wow, indeed. Not what I expected as a response. I would prefer a rules-based reply, thank you. The fifth sentence qualifies. Sorry if my reply came off more cryptic than I intended. It's a gray area as far as the rules are concerned. If you're handling a frame in a bag of parts --- and if we assume that losing a slide at the end of a stage is not a DQ because the shooter retained the frame, then by that logic you could be DQ'd for handling the frame outside a safety area. The point of my post was "What do you gain by not going to the safety area?" In the safety area you can handle all the parts you want, heck you can assemble a blaster there --- and it's not a gray area.... You said, "This IMHO has the potential to get ugly quickly ---". Do you mean in terms of this forum, or of the rules as they now stand, or something else? Should I drop this question?Glen Simply this: do the wrong thing or get the wrong RO and you're dealing with a match DQ. Do you want to hang your match finish on doing something that just isn't smart? We (USPSA) have redundant safety rules (and strictly govern the "Handling" of firearms on the range) specifically because of the potential lethality of mishandled guns. So here's the thing: All your parts are in one of those large ziplocs. You're not in the safety area, and are rooting around in the bag looking for a safety or a spring. An RO walks past and sees you holding the frame --- now he's got to make a tough call based on what he saw for a second or less. Once he makes that call, the commission of the infraction isn't up for debate --- and you're heading for arbitration.... I'd call that an ugly situation at a match --- because I'm betting if you'd known it could go there, you would have walked over to the safe table, right? I've seen people make mistakes on the range, but I've never seen competitors try to deliberately get DQ'd for a safety infraction. I'm assuming that you'd act the exact same way --- it might occur as an error, but you wouldn't do it on purpose, right? The question's fine here --- that really wasn't meant in terms of the forum.... I hate match DQ's, but accept them as a necessary part of maintaining a safe range. I hate stupid match DQs --- ejecting a snap cap at Make Ready, picking up a dropped gun outside a course of fire, handling ammo at the safe table, handling guns at the trunk of a car in the parking lot, etc. --- most of all, because I see them as totally preventable.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Van Valkenburg Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Possible thread drift, but I am intruiged by the topic. If during a course of fire, with a loaded chamber, your slide falls off of the frame and the muzzle breaks the 180, would that situation be a DQ? Not trying to stir up a hornet's nest, just curious. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Possible thread drift, but I am intruiged by the topic. If during a course of fire, with a loaded chamber, your slide falls off of the frame and the muzzle breaks the 180, would that situation be a DQ? Not trying to stir up a hornet's nest, just curious. Ray This has come up before on this forum. The rulingwas no dropped gun and no breaking the 180. Once the barrel and slide fall off, your gun no longer has a muzzle. <snip> There is an unspoken assumption here, that the frame that is still in your hand is "the gun". Most folks would accept that idea probably because the frame has a serial number on it. However, USPSA doesn't have a definition of what constitutes a firearm so you may still get a dispute. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 10.5.2 Did muzzle exceed 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop ? Does not apply since the barrel is no longer part of the gun (see post #2): 10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6). Who's gun is it a part of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 10.5.2 Did muzzle exceed 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop ? Does not apply since the barrel is no longer part of the gun (see post #2): 10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6). Who's gun is it a part of? My buddy Ron's. Again. I don't see what the big deal is. This seems really straight forward to me. No DQ on the ground of the gun was no longer a gun. Treat the situation as a Broken gun during a COF. The incident happened on the last stage at the Holster command so you can't say the gun was unsafe for the rest of the match considering the this was the shooter's last stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Thing is, if there is a round in the chamber, it could go off when the top end hits the ground. Extremely unlikely, but there you have it. Treat the situation as a Broken gun during a COF. Right, when a broken gun results in violation of a safety rule, it's a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 COF was complete. He holstered... The frame anyway. Oh well no one was there but him and the ROs. Its over now. He shot Area 4 without a problem so I guess his gun is working now. I thought it was funny so that's why I posted it. My care meter has dropped to zero on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 The Course of fire was NOT complete, check the rule book. 8.3.8, "Range is clear command" signifies the end of the cof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Yep you guys are right. I quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Dropped gun has nothing to do with 10.5.2, The muzzle of your gun is still the muzzle whether it is attached or not. 10.5.2 applies to at any time during the course of fire a competitor allows muzzle to point rearwards. This event happened during holster and I'd assume before range is clear command. There fore it was during the course of fire. No exception is made for improper assembly or weapon malfunctions. If the muzzle broke the 90 degree from the median intercept during the COF it is a Match DQ. An arbitration committee may decide under 11.1.2 that exceptional circumstances existed but that would be up to them. I can go to the safe table. Take the slide and barrel off of my handgun. Leave the safe table with the barrel and slide and juggle them in the air. They are not a firearm. They are parts. Even if there is a live round stuck in the chamber, once the barrel is removed from the frame and firing machanism they're just parts. ETA: besides. See post #2 Edited October 23, 2009 by Steve J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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