Pictures of my mag problem

[wbw]

Earlier this week I posted a review of my Witness Elite Match. I'm loving this gun but did have a problem with one of the two magazines. One of them would lock the slide back before the last bullet had been fired. The other mag worked as expected.

I took them apart today and the main difference that I see is the red part. Is that the follower? Since it follows the bullets? The 'good' one is larger on that corner that would make contact with the slide stop. The one that is a problem is noticeably smaller on that corner.

Here is a picture of the two magazines. The one on the left is the problem. One on right works perfectly.

Another pic of just the plastic part. Top is good, bottom is the problem.

So am i on the right track that the plastic part is the problem? If so, what is the solution? Just buy another mag over the internet and hope for the best?

Thanks for any help.

[JoshF]

Couple of solutions for that. Are you using this as a competition gun or some other purpose? Also what caliber is it?

If you absolutely want the slide lock on last round to work call Henning. He probably has a ton of different followers available for all different calibers.

If you are shooting competitively and want the most capacity and no slide lock, call Henning. He can get you +1 round and more consistent function with his spring/follower however... no slide lock (most everyone disables this anyway).

Either way a call to Henning might be in order

Earlier this week I posted a review of my Witness Elite Match. I'm loving this gun but did have a problem with one of the two magazines. One of them would lock the slide back before the last bullet had been fired. The other mag worked as expected.

I took them apart today and the main difference that I see is the red part. Is that the follower? Since it follows the bullets? The 'good' one is larger on that corner that would make contact with the slide stop. The one that is a problem is noticeably smaller on that corner.

Here is a picture of the two magazines. The one on the left is the problem. One on right works perfectly.

Another pic of just the plastic part. Top is good, bottom is the problem.

So am i on the right track that the plastic part is the problem? If so, what is the solution? Just buy another mag over the internet and hope for the best?

Thanks for any help.

[wbw]

It is 9mm. I have just recently started doing Steel Challenge at my club. I'm hoping maybe to try IDPA next year. So the answer is 'possibly' to competition. Since I'm not experienced in competition now, please explain how it is a benefit for the slide to not lock back after the last shot. Seems like that would be a good thing.

Thanks again.

[Whitefish]

It is 9mm. I have just recently started doing Steel Challenge at my club. I'm hoping maybe to try IDPA next year. So the answer is 'possibly' to competition. Since I'm not experienced in competition now, please explain how it is a benefit for the slide to not lock back after the last shot. Seems like that would be a good thing.

Thanks again.

In the heat of competition (running on adrenalin), it is entirely possible to over-insert a magazine (past the mag catch) during a magazine change and completely lock up the gun. Sometimes one can easily pull the mag back out, sometimes not. With a gun set to not lock back on the last round, that shouldn't be an issue. In addition, the magazine change will likely be faster with the slide closed. Releasing the slide from lock back seems to take additional time over merely racking the slide once a new magazine is inserted. Since elapsed time is a big factor in USPSA scoring, shaving off seconds or tenths of seconds is a good thing.

[G-ManBart]

It is 9mm. I have just recently started doing Steel Challenge at my club. I'm hoping maybe to try IDPA next year. So the answer is 'possibly' to competition. Since I'm not experienced in competition now, please explain how it is a benefit for the slide to not lock back after the last shot. Seems like that would be a good thing.

Thanks again.

In the heat of competition (running on adrenalin), it is entirely possible to over-insert a magazine (past the mag catch) during a magazine change and completely lock up the gun. Sometimes one can easily pull the mag back out, sometimes not. With a gun set to not lock back on the last round, that shouldn't be an issue. In addition, the magazine change will likely be faster with the slide closed. Releasing the slide from lock back seems to take additional time over merely racking the slide once a new magazine is inserted. Since elapsed time is a big factor in USPSA scoring, shaving off seconds or tenths of seconds is a good thing.

Yeah, and countless L-10, Single Stack and Production shooters do slide lock reloads over and over and over and we don't see the over-insertion/break off the ejector problem that so many people cite. Further, if it takes someone longer to hit the slide release than it does to rack the slide they're already doing something very wrong.

In fact, the argument for having your slide lock back is multiple orders of magnitude stronger than the opposite. What's the absolute easiest way to waste a huge amount of time on a stage? That's easy....shoot the gun empty (since it didn't lock back to remind you), hear the "click", realize you've run the gun dry, put a new magazine in (half the time forgetting to rack the slide), rack the slide and get back to shooting. Haven't we all seen that exact scenario happen over and over and over during matches? Can't say I've ever seen an ejector broken off and I don't remember a time when a mag was seated so hard it wouldn't come out.

Hmmm....one is extremely common and the other is extremely rare and we're going to modify our guns for the really unusual one?

[ParaGunner]

I have to agree with G-Man Bart,I think disabling the slide lock is a bad idea. And I think it's faster to depress the slide stop than pulling back the slide after reloading. I can depress the slide stop while getting my grip to shoot.

[Whitefish]

It is 9mm. I have just recently started doing Steel Challenge at my club. I'm hoping maybe to try IDPA next year. So the answer is 'possibly' to competition. Since I'm not experienced in competition now, please explain how it is a benefit for the slide to not lock back after the last shot. Seems like that would be a good thing.

Thanks again.

In the heat of competition (running on adrenalin), it is entirely possible to over-insert a magazine (past the mag catch) during a magazine change and completely lock up the gun. Sometimes one can easily pull the mag back out, sometimes not. With a gun set to not lock back on the last round, that shouldn't be an issue. In addition, the magazine change will likely be faster with the slide closed. Releasing the slide from lock back seems to take additional time over merely racking the slide once a new magazine is inserted. Since elapsed time is a big factor in USPSA scoring, shaving off seconds or tenths of seconds is a good thing.

Yeah, and countless L-10, Single Stack and Production shooters do slide lock reloads over and over and over and we don't see the over-insertion/break off the ejector problem that so many people cite. Further, if it takes someone longer to hit the slide release than it does to rack the slide they're already doing something very wrong.

In fact, the argument for having your slide lock back is multiple orders of magnitude stronger than the opposite. What's the absolute easiest way to waste a huge amount of time on a stage? That's easy....shoot the gun empty (since it didn't lock back to remind you), hear the "click", realize you've run the gun dry, put a new magazine in (half the time forgetting to rack the slide), rack the slide and get back to shooting. Haven't we all seen that exact scenario happen over and over and over during matches? Can't say I've ever seen an ejector broken off and I don't remember a time when a mag was seated so hard it wouldn't come out.

Hmmm....one is extremely common and the other is extremely rare and we're going to modify our guns for the really unusual one?

FYI - I won't argue with your logic. It was just an explanation of why some think it is a good thing in response to the question posed. As with most things, it is open to a lively discourse on pros and cons and opinions do vary. There are lots of different ideas out there. My single stack .45 locks back and my open and limited guns do not. My personal preference is rather neutral on the subject (leaning toward not locking back especially for open), but having small hands, I do find reaching for the slide stop to be difficult at times without totaling shifting the grip with my strong hand. There goes the time advantage. The best scenario is not to shoot to slide lock, but sometimes crap happens. On the down side, I saw the over insertion of a single stack 10 round mag lock up a gun badly and cost a shooter a stage at the 2009 Area 1. Actually, I've seen it happen much more with the 10 round single stack mags for some reason.

[G-ManBart]

FYI - I won't argue with your logic. It was just an explanation of why some think it is a good thing in response to the question posed.

Oh, I know you were just pointing out what lots of folks think/say...didn't mean for it to sound like it was directed at you personally (should have been more clear on that).

As with most things, it is open to a lively discourse on pros and cons and opinions do vary. There are lots of different ideas out there. My single stack .45 locks back and my open and limited guns do not. My personal preference is rather neutral on the subject (leaning toward not locking back especially for open), but having small hands, I do find reaching for the slide stop to be difficult at times without totaling shifting the grip with my strong hand. There goes the time advantage. The best scenario is not to shoot to slide lock, but sometimes crap happens.

My Open guns don't lock back (just the way the smiths built them), but if you run a 29-31 round mag dry there's probably a bigger issue at hand! My Limited gun locks back as do my SS and Prod guns. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen a Limited gun shooter run dry, get the dreaded "click" and go through the whole fire drill to get it running again. They'd have saved a lot of time if it was just dump the mag, reload and drop the slide.

If your hands are small, it may be worth looking at learning to hit the slide release with your left hand (for a righty). As your hand finishes seating the mag it just slides up a little farther and you can hit the release without ever moving your strong hand's position on the gun....pretty slick once you get it down and way faster than racking and might be faster than using your right thumb if you have to shift your grip a lot. Just an idea

On the down side, I saw the over insertion of a single stack 10 round mag lock up a gun badly and cost a shooter a stage at the 2009 Area 1. Actually, I've seen it happen much more with the 10 round single stack mags for some reason.

I think you're probably right about the skinny 10-round mags. That little tab to stop them isn't quite the same as running out of hand/mag length. Funny thing is that probably most of the L-10 shooters who run single stacks with long mags probably have their guns set up to lock back....same as most SS and Production shooters.

I've always thought it was a little bit of a contradiction when you almost never hear SS shooters saying you should set the gun up so it won't lock back, but they're doing 2-4 reloads on most stages and the Lim and Open folks are doing one or none. In other words, the SS shooters have the most exposure to the problem and are the ones least likely to have the preventative setup in their gun....but it doesn't seem to cause problems with much frequency. R,

[G-ManBart]

So am i on the right track that the plastic part is the problem? If so, what is the solution? Just buy another mag over the internet and hope for the best?

Thanks for any help.

Is it locking back with just one round left, more than one, or randomly?

If it's with just one round left, try the following. Take the slide off the gun, put the slide stop back in place and then insert the magazines (both good and bad) with a dummy round in them. The follower shouldn't be making contact with the slide stop at that point. It's possible to trim down the contact point/ledge on the follower so that it won't touch the slide stop with a round in the mag, but will when it's empty.

If it's with more than one round left you'll want to do the same as the above (maybe put a couple of dummy rounds in this time) and make sure there isn't any possibility that the bullets are brushing the slide stop as they move upwards in the mag....that can be just enough to engage the slide stop. If so, a little bit of shaping on the inside of the slide stop should fix it. R,

[DarthMuffin]

Call EAA about your magazine problem. You can probably get them to fix the mag for you, but you'll have to send it in. I recently bought 4 mags that all had similar problems, as well as an issue with the spring poking out under the front of the follower -- keeping it from compressing in the first place. I took my followers out to compare and found them different too. I suspect they have a bad batch of followers, maybe a new supplier or something.

Regarding the lock back or not debate, either way isn't a big deal to me. I think it's a good habit, at least from a tactical-under-pressure perspective, to always do the same motion -- in this case racking the slide. This generally fixes your issue no matter what it was (reload, jam, etc). In addition it's more of a gross motor skill that's easier to do when the adrenaline is flowing.

[Duane Thomas]

but having small hands, I do find reaching for the slide stop to be difficult at times without totaling shifting the grip with my strong hand.

As Bart mentioned, try hitting the slide stop with your support hand thumb. MUCH faster than shifting the gun in your hand to hit with with the master hand thumb.

[Duane Thomas]

In addition it's more of a gross motor skill that's easier to do when the adrenaline is flowing.

I hear this argument a lot. Problem: it's slow. Reaching over the gun, grabbing the slide, pulling it to the rear and releasing it to go forward, then moving your hand forward again to reacquire your grip is a fairly complex series of movements that are, in the overall scheme of things, big, not particularly fast movements.

Maybe it's true that thumbing the slide stop requires more practice to master than jacking the slide....though I have to say that I've never seen curling my thumb down to be a fine motor skill.

[Mo Hepworth]

the follower is much higher on the left mag,..you can do a few things. I got advice previously on this forum and in Hennings section. Try pressing in the top of the mag from the sides,...this will stop the follower from feeding so high. the follower feeding so high may cause the round too feed to high, causing a jam. OR, the slide may lock back with only 1rd left in the mag. You can also trim the ledge of the follower by about 1mm. Make a cut with a razor or box cutter tool. The cut should not be at an angle,..stay level. You can also try to trim the slide lever so it is not activated during recoil/ movement/ accidentally. I prefer to have it lock back when empty, as it comes in handy in production and L10.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Mo Hepworth

[brnhp35]

kind still driffty but one thing i've seen and dont know how often comes into play is a lefty using production gun ..has the slidelock functional so locks back when empty but when has replaced mag slingshots back of slide...so release never used ....

[JoshF]

Wow.. lot of debating but most of you missed the main point here completely. This is a Tanfoglio we're talking about and not a 1911, Glock, M&P or other...

Generally the most important reason to disable the slide lock on the design is they will 9 times out of 10 activate the slide lock before the mag is empty once you go to an aftermarket follower. This not only negates your +1 you get with the follower/spring but totally screws up your round count. Also the 9mm which are a little finicky at best in the large frame design tend to either do this or miss the slide stop completely even with stock followers. I've had this happen with two large frame 9mms I shot

The other reason to disable it completely is to go to a hardened slide stop pin as Tanfoglio and all CZ designs are known for bending or breaking the stock pins since the unlocking system can be a little hard on them. Nobody currently makes a slide stop pin with the entire lever such as stock.

If you want the followers replaced call EAA and they might get you working I have little faith in them honestly. If you want a solution.... call Henning.

BTW I've seen three broken ejectors in 1911s this year in just the small group of shooters I talk with regularly. Most break their ejectors and just never notice if it doesn't stop the gun from working. I still think this idea has a LOT of merit for those designs but this is the Tanfoglio forum so I'll save that for another post.

[Nik Habicht]

Yeah, and countless L-10, Single Stack and Production shooters do slide lock reloads over and over and over and we don't see the over-insertion/break off the ejector problem that so many people cite. Further, if it takes someone longer to hit the slide release than it does to rack the slide they're already doing something very wrong.

I'll just point out that the bulk of competitors in those divisions are either inserting factory mags or mags that will stop on the frame, thereby eliminating the over-insertion problem --- so perhaps not the best comparison....

As opposed to shooters in Limited or Open inserting 140/170 tubes which are capable of being overinserted....

[Nik Habicht]

Generally the most important reason to disable the slide lock on the design is they will 9 times out of 10 activate the slide lock before the mag is empty once you go to an aftermarket follower. This not only negates your +1 you get with the follower/spring but totally screws up your round count. Also the 9mm which are a little finicky at best in the large frame design tend to either do this or miss the slide stop completely even with stock followers. I've had this happen with two large frame 9mms I shot

That's actually the reason I've heard more often over the years --- at least until tuned mags became de rigeur....

[Mo Hepworth]

Yeah, and countless L-10, Single Stack and Production shooters do slide lock reloads over and over and over and we don't see the over-insertion/break off the ejector problem that so many people cite. Further, if it takes someone longer to hit the slide release than it does to rack the slide they're already doing something very wrong.

I'll just point out that the bulk of competitors in those divisions are either inserting factory mags or mags that will stop on the frame, thereby eliminating the over-insertion problem --- so perhaps not the best comparison....

As opposed to shooters in Limited or Open inserting 140/170 tubes which are capable of being overinserted....

I don't think this is an issue with the tanfoglio,..most times the ejector does not get contacted, but the bottom of the sear housing may get hit.

SO,..if you would ever get a broken ejector, you will have to replace the entire sear housing.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Mo Hepworth

[G-ManBart]

Wow.. lot of debating but most of you missed the main point here completely. This is a Tanfoglio we're talking about and not a 1911, Glock, M&P or other...

Yes, but taking a little bit of material off the ledge as suggested will frequently fix the premature lockback problem on a Tanfoglio. From the pics provided that seems like the likely difference between the problem mag and the good mag. R,

[Skydiver]

Have you read the advice here:

http://www.tanfo11.com/faq.html

Personally, I just replaced the factory springs with CZ mag springs.

[wbw]

Have you read the advice here:

http://www.tanfo11.com/faq.html

Personally, I just replaced the factory springs with CZ mag springs.

I had not seen that. I'll compare the spring from the good mag to the spring from the bad mag. Thanks.

[LeoHallak]

Josh is right, the main reason to disable slide lock is that the slide stop pins bend very easily from the factory and have a tendency to break. If you replace it with one of Hennings you never have to worry about that.

Leo

[wbw]

This is an update for those who contributed to this thread. The problem was that with one of my mags, the slide would lock back with one round still left in the magazine.

I had done a crude measurement of the opening at the feed lips. The offending mag was a little wider at the opening. I bent the one side in a little to try to fix it. I tested it out today. BINGO! Problem solved. I put about a hundred rounds through using only the 'bad' mag and it workred flawlessly.