mcoliver Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I tried a search but came up empty. Anyway, with regards to IPSC rules, if you're using a gun in Standard with a 4" barrel and you don't make the required major PF can you request for your ammo to be re-chronoed using another gun but with a 5" barrel? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 This is Vince's area of expertise, but I'll say this.... Only ask that if you want to be the subject of amusement for the chrono staff and RM. You might as well request that your load be chronographed through a 26" barrel gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 McOliver, Our old mate Erik was very kind with his reply You only get one crack at chrono, and that's by using a maximum of 8 rounds (selected by a match official, not you), and the exact gun you've used to shoot stages. If you fail to make the grade, then it's either "Welcome to Minor" or "Thanks for coming to shoot for no score". No exceptions, no excuses, no way Jose. As a bit of domestic trivia for you, at the IPSC Level IV Australasian Championships held in Cebu in 1996, a top-notch Swedish shooter, who I'll only mention by his nickname "Barbie Doll", chronographed at 174.99 when the power factor was 175. This is neither a joke nor an exaggeration. He cried, he screamed, he did a triple somersault with a pike & half twist, and he even threatened to pee in the fruit punch if we didn't re-chrono him, but his chrono result stood firm. That's the rules and if we failed to enforce them strictly, it would not be fair to the other 499 competitors, none of whom went anywhere near the fruit punch again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Anyway, with regards to IPSC rules, if you're using a gun in Standard with a 4" barrel and you don't make the required major PF can you request for your ammo to be re-chronoed using another gun but with a 5" barrel? Hmmm . . . as the others mentioned, chrono data at the match is always taken with your gun that you shoot . . . not your backup or someone else's gun because it doesn't matter how it shoots in any gun other than the one you shoot. When you shoot with a shorter barrel, you usually have to load your ammo a little hotter to make the power factor . . . so when you load it, you have to chrono it with your own gun so you know how it does. The results in a buddy's gun don't matter much, even if it has the same barrel length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Any rule of thumb for FPS with a 4" vs. a 5"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Depends on caliber, bullet weight, jacketed or lead, primer and powder, but generally 40 fps of so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Vince, what if his gun "broke" (e.g., because he dashed it against the concrete floor repeatedly) and he got the RM's permission to switch to another gun? That gun would have to be chronographed.... what if it made the declared PF? Once under, always under? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Erik, Correctamundo, but it's also a case of "Previously over, but now under, all under". If you're authorised to use a replacement gun or ammo, the new item(s) must also be chronographed, and the lower PF applies to the whole match. The relevent rules are: 5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied: 5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division. 5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage. 5.1.7.3 The competitor’s ammunition, when tested in the substitute handgun attains the minimum power factor using the match chronograph (see Rule 5.6.3.9). ++++++ 5.6.3.9 If a competitor's ammunition is retested, or if any authorized replacement ammunition is used, and different power factors are recorded when tested according to these rules, the lower power factor must be applied to score all courses of fire, including those already completed by the competitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 what about if competitor's first stage is chrono. He never fired a "for score" shot, scores minor, can he change his gun, rechrono, make major, and shoot the match with this one? Doesn't seem to be covered by the rule book.... Common sense? Seems like the competitor started the match with whatever gun he walked up to stage 1 (chrono, in his case) and is therefore sol, though my common sense tells me he hasn't started the real match and should be allowed to switch... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Detlef, Making chronograph an actual stage is essentially good match management and, if I was RM and a competitor wanted to change his gun before he actually attempted a "real" stage, I would most likely give him permission. In fact, it's not uncommon for an MD or RM to allow competitors to "pre-chrono" by testing their guns before attempting actual stages which count for score. While such an accomodation is not obligatory (and you must be wary not to get overwhelmed with such requests at larger matches), there's no harm if it's done before the real action begins. However, in order to keep everybody honest, I would probably do a spot check of that very same competitor during the match, and I expect him to be gracious if such a request is made - it cuts both ways. Our Swedish buddy who was going (for the first time) from a cold, low humidity climate like Sweden to a hot, high humidity climate like the Philippines should've tested his gun before the match. I learnt this at my very first match in the Philippines when my Glock 21 which chronographed at 201PF in an air-conditioned indoor range in Hong Kong only managed 185PF outdoors in Cebu. This was a nice load to shoot, but I would've been in deep doo-doo if I factored at 185PF at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I am glad to hear that you, too, would let common sense prevail. Just for the record, I am unaware of any humidity effect on loaded ammunition (it may exist for loading ammo under different humidity conditions, but a cartridge is essentially sealed once it's loaded). So, only the temperature is left as variable, and a responsible competitor looks up his powder's temperature coefficients. Barbie obviously had a negative coefficient powder (the hotter the temp, the lamer the bang), and you say you had the same thing happen to you. Kind of unusual. Most of the powders I know have positive T coefficients (the hotter the T, the banger the bang). --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted November 19, 2003 Author Share Posted November 19, 2003 Thanks guys. The reason I asked was that it was "mentioned" twice in two different matches so I just had to confirm because I couldn't find it in the current rule book. First was when I used my G19 and failed to make PF with the range reloads. The chrono guy said I could find somebody with a G17 since PF's are "usually computed with standard-sized guns." The same "advise" was also given recently to another shooter using a compact gun that didn't make PF. Jeez, now I wonder what rules these people were referring to.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 McOliver, Probably the rules written by Mr. Rourke and Tattoo, which only apply to matches held on Fantasy Island ............ "De plane, de plane". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I learnt this at my very first match in the Philippines when my Glock 21 which chronographed at 201PF in an air-conditioned indoor range in Hong Kong only managed 185PF outdoors in Cebu. This was a nice load to shoot, but I would've been in deep doo-doo if I factored at 185PF at home. 185? 200? I didn't know there'd ever been anwhere IPSC-type that required power factors that high. I thought the highest ever was 175. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Duane, You've misunderstood my post. I only needed a 175PF at the time to make Major in Standard Division, and the ammo I was using at that time (200gr PMC in 45ACP), recorded 201PF through my trusty G21 in Hong Kong before I departed for the match in the Philippines. When I was chronographed during the match, my previously 201PF ammo only recorded 185PF, which was perfect but it was a shock to see the huge drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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