Swaging Cast bullets

[professor]

OK, I'm loading 45 ACP with 230 gr cast lead bullets using a Lyman turret press, and ran into the following problem. The resulting rounds don't all slide smoothly into my Mod 625 cylinder, and a moon clip with one or more of these oversized rounds won't reload cleanly.

To diagnose the problem, I loaded a hundred rounds with the following intermediate checks.

First, I sized and decapped the empty casings.

Then I checked all casings using a case gauge, which they all passed.

Then I bell the cases, insert primers, load with powder.

At this point, I'm inserting the bullet using a Hornady bullet seater die, with no crimp. Then I use a taper crimp die to crimp.

When I case gauge check the finished products, a significant number fail. They have a noticeable bulge due to the inserted bullet. Also, these rounds will not drop cleanly into my revolver cylinder, sticking up at least quarter inch, which is too much, as it prevents closing the cylinder.

This is happening with about 10 percent of the loaded bullets, which is not an acceptable reject rate. I can usually force them into the revo cylinder by pushing on a moonclip containing one or two of these rounds with my thumb, but that's not an option for reloading during matches.

Looking closely at the bullets, it appears that some of them have a residual seam due to the mold which makes them slightly out of round and which is probably distending the casing when the bullet is inserted.

I'm thinking that if there is a die for swaging the bullets down to a consistent diameter BEFORE they are loaded into the casing, the casing will not distend out of round, and all the rounds will be acceptable. Is such a die available to work with a turret press?

At this point, I'm looking at about a thousand bullets that I'd like to swage before loading, just to keep from wasting the component primers & powder. Yesterday, I shot off about 60 rejects just to recover the brass for another go at it. I tried using an impact bullet puller to disassemble these, but the crimp is too much to overcome easily. It's not worth the effort to do it on all the rejects.

Any ideas? Or do I just take the hit and use any rejects for practice?

Edited September 21, 2009 by professor

[Toolguy]

Cast bullets should always be run through a size die just like brass is. Normally, the lube is applied while they are in the die. The press for

doing this is called a "lubri-sizer". Several companies make these including RCBS and Lyman. My favorite one is the Star. If the bullets are

already lubed, you can still size them without adding more lube. Bullets with the casting seam were not run through the correct size die,

if any at all.

[Revopop]

I had this problem with LSWCs when I first started loading on a Lee hand press. Because it wasn't mounted on a bench, it was really difficult to get the bullet into the case straight. I got a Lee Factory Crimp die, and it took the bulge out with ease.

Warren's fix is probably the right way to do it, but the FCD is cheap, so you can get it to use up those bullets and then get some that're properly sized.

[jmorris]

What is the OD of the bullets? With the Magma mold and alloy that I use, bullets come out of the mold .458” then I have to size them down to .452”.

If you don’t want to pull what you have already loaded use the “hard to reload” ones for the first 6 and save the good ones for reloads after that.

[sargenv]

Lee makes a sizing die that is supposed to be used with their Lee Liquid Alox tumble lube. There is also the Lubrisizer route. The other route you can take if you don't mind spending the money is to purchase a custom mold and tell the mold maker you want them to drop your alloy at a specific size. I had Veral at LBT make me up a semi-pointed RN that has the bullets drop at .401" every time. I tumble lube the bullets, wait for the lube to dry and then load them pretty much as cast. If the mold is dropping bullets with a seam, then your mold blocks are not true and are causing oversized bullets to be dropped. The mold blocks might be either dirty (little bits of stuff keeping the blocks just slightly apart) or they might be warped or just not cut right from the mold maker. I had the molds I bought made custom mostly because no one made a mold specifically like I wanted.. it is a 4 cavity model that was $185. I had to get RCBS handles for them.

Most people who cast are putting their bullets through some sort of lubrisizer.. I didn't want to go that route and paid for it so I didn't need the extra equipment (that at the time was unobtanium).

[professor]

Thanks for the ideas. In the short term, I think I'll just cull the 'sticky' ones to start a stage. After shooting them, the empty casings drop out easy enough.

[Chills1994]

Huh?

Wait!

What?!

If these were commercially available cast boolits, then you have been cheated because they were NOT correctly sized.

If these are boolits you cast yourself, well, then you only have yourself to blame.

Because the way mould blocks are made, the boolits may actually measure a few thousandths larger 90 degrees to the seam versus with the seam.

Warren, I'm sending you a PM.

[Chills1994]

@ professor.... so we all are on the same sheet of music, "swaging" is a totally different process than "casting".

Swaging usually takes the form of ordering in a big ol' spool of lead wire of the proper diameter. Then cutting little bitty pieces of this lead wire to whatever the correct length is. Then you press this "core" into a die or multiple dies to get the proper shape.

Yes, you can even make copper jacketed bullets with the swaging process, but you have to first acquire copper sheet "metal" of the appopriate thickness. Then you have to "blank it out" and make the right size circular copper disc's called "coins".

Then you run these coins through various dies in a press, usually a hydraulically powered press, like one made by Corbin, to draw and form a cup. Then you insert the lead core into this copper cup and run it up into a few more dies to actually make a nose to this bullet.

I think to buy one of the Corbin hydraulic swaging presses now would run close to $10K. Then you still have to track down an economical source for the copper "sheet metal" and the lead wire.

FWIW, Corbin does make a kit to take fired .22LR brass and turn it into .223 projectiles. It is just a series of dies that can be screwed into the top of your stout-er single stage presses. But it sounds like a process for people who have a lot of times on their hands.

"Casting" is just melting lead or lead alloys into aluminum or steel mould blocks. As the lead cools, it takes the shape of the mould. The boolits can then be dropped into water to quench them, which hardens them, or they can be let out to just air cool.

This is what casting lead boolits looks like, first person wise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTrD8buyIHY...feature=channel

Yeah, some mould blocks will drop boolits that can be shot as cast. However, most likely the pro-jo's to be will have to be run through a (lube??) sizer first.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Chills1994

[professor]

Further information about my situation:

The bullets I'm dealing with were commercially cast, 230 gr 45 cal RNL. Manufacturer put them through a post-cast sizing and lube process, during which the bottom half of the bullet [with one cannulure for lube] was reduced in diameter. However, the surface of this portion of the bullets shows striations parallel to the bullet axis, and some must be oversize, based on my problems with the finished bullets sticking in the cylinder.

When I mike this portion of the bullets, I get dimensions ranging from 0.452 to 0.453. Part of the variability is probably my miking technique with this dial mike, but some of the finished rounds will not make it all the way into the revolver cylinder cleanly.

The ID of my cleaned, resized, primed and belled brass is consistent at about 0.448 [which is what I measured last night]. I'm planning on getting the Lee Lube & Size kit for about $20, that uses the regular press to push each bullet up through a sizing die into a catch bowl.

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/br...g/lubesize.html

Lee makes them for final bullet size of 0.451 and 0.452, and I figure the 0.451 sizer will do the job. Essentially, the cylinder portion of the bullets will get squeezed in just a tad, improving the "roundness", and that will reduce the bullet bulge when I use them. And THAT will improve moon clip reloading of the finished bullets.

[20nickels]

I would suggest the .452 die. Oversize is better than undersize, to a point of course, but that's what my S&W eats. If these are already commercially lubed boolits then you might get away with putting ta bunch of them in a ziplock bag and spraying them with red can Hornaday One Shot, close bag and shake around to coat well. Then run through Lee sizer. Using Alox will present other sticky problems.

[20nickels]

For the loaded rds, you may be able to take a Lee FCD, pull the guts out of it and push the loaded rds all the way through the die so they come out the top for a full re-size. Use your Lee boolit sizer base to push them through. Should swage everything down to size. Like this;

good luck!

[Chills1994]

The solution to Lee Liquid Alox causing the boolits to feel sticky is to tumble them in either talcum powder or corn starch.

As far as the boolits go.... I do have to kinda wonder if maybe you didn't buy cowboy action shooting boolits meant for the .45 Long Colt instead.

Or if maybe the commercial boolit caster was sizing boolits with some larger .453 or .454 sizer die in his automated lube-sizer and just forgot to switch to a .451 or .452 die instead.

The downside to having automated casting and sizing equipment is you could make a bunch of boogered up boolits in a hurry.

and just an FYI... this is what a cannelure looks like:

This is what a lube groove looks like:

If you have any striations that go lengthwise down the bullet, especially where it is supposed to rub up against the bore and engage the rifling, that's bad...bad ju-ju right there.

[Tom E]

This thread has been going for a while and everyones been concentrating on the bullet/bullet "bulge". 625's frequently have a problem with the chambers being both undersize and out of round. Reaming the chambers is the fix. Most of my .45 brass had been fired in a semi-auto, much was LEO range brass fired in Glocks. The brass was bulged ("Glocked") just above the extrator groove. Many sizing dies do not size the brass adequately in this area. Lee dies do. Guess my point is your problem may be a brass and chamber size issue. I know it was a problem with my 625's until I reamed the chambers and started using a Lee sizing die. Prior to that the moonclipped rounds wanted to hang and stop about 1/8" short of fully chambered.

[Chills1994]

I don't own one single revolver, so I wouldn't have a clue about the quirks/nuiances of the S and W 625.

I do, however, know a bit about casting boolits and sizing them, hence, my replies were focused on the "software" of the gun... not the hardware itself.

The Evolution Gun Works/Lee Undersize die, I think, does a fine job of shrinking down the cases.

If it is Glocked brass, then, it would be kinda tedius, but our OP could seperate out the cases with the rectangular-ish primer indents.

My usual response when somebody has an ammo issue is: Do you case gauge your ammo?

My gut feeling right now is that if the ammo passes the case gauge, but fails to drop where it should into the cylinder, then, yeah, you're right, it is gun issue.

@ our OP... how well does factory ammo fit into the cylinder?

I'm just curious.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Chills1994

[revchuck]

Lee makes them for final bullet size of 0.451 and 0.452, and I figure the 0.451 sizer will do the job.

Professor - Before you buy this, take a few of those bullets - not loaded rounds - and drop them into the chambers with the muzzle pointed down. In the best case, they should stick in the chamber mouths but be able to be pushed out with a pencil or something similar. If they fall through, they're already too small and don't need to be smaller. If they stick and can't be reasonably easily pushed through, then they're too big. Bullet fit to chamber mouth is the most important factor with cast bullets for accuracy and lack of leading in revolvers.

If the bullets are the right size by this method, then your problem isn't a bullet problem, but a brass, reloading method or chamber problem.

Check your ammo dimensions. Get your mike out and measure the round from the case mouth to the part right above the extractor groove. SAAMI specs are .473" at the case mouth, tapering to .476" right above the extractor groove. If the ammo is bigger than that, then you need to check how you load. Be advised that some brass is relatively thick, and will bulge with .452" lead bullets. Winchester and CBC cases are notorious for this. A Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) will cure this, but at the cost of possibly resizing the bullet in the case and definitely making the loading process on a progressive loader (like my 550) a herky-jerky process.

[jmorris]

The bullets I'm dealing with were commercially cast, 230 gr 45 cal RNL.

I thought they were your bullets before; I’d give the manufacture a call and let them fix it. If they don’t post there name in the appropriate places and shoot through what you have left.

[open17]

Dumb question----is this mixed brass? Does the problem occur in one particular headstamp?

Could be the bullets, thick brass, tight chamber(s), or a combination.

I have a Lee FCD on the last station on my 550 45 setup---I use it for my 625 and several

1911's with great results. My only problem is when some %$#@^% Amerc brass sneaks

into the mix.

[professor]

Thanks for the many suggestions.

The brass I'm shooting started out as range brass, mixed head stamps, but I've now shot them through this Mod 625 at least once. I pick up range brass at some matches, but just dump any that have problems.

All the cartridges I load pass the case gauge test before I try them in the gun. Since some of the brass gets stepped on during a match, or is range brass fired through a bottom-feeder, sometimes the case head has a burr on it or a gouge from the extractor. I'll touch those up with a fine file so they go in the case gauge cleanly. Still, at the case gauge test I'll see some that are 'tighter' than others, and those are the ones giving me a problem in the revo cylinder.

I did get the Lee Lube and Size kit in .451, and resized the cast lead bullets tonight.

I put nearly 500 bullets through the resizer using a turret press. The force necessary to process each bullet changed enough, bullet to bullet, to convince me that there was an initial variation in the diameter of the cylindrical part of the bullet. Also, the resized ones now have a nice shiny look to them, and the striations I mentioned are gone.

I also tried revchucks idea of dropping the bullets into each cylinder. After resizing, each bullet fell right in until it contacted the shoulder in the cylinder bore. None could be forced past that point with 'pencil pressure'. Just for comparison, I tried the same thing with Precision Delta 45 ACP 230 Gr FMJ bullets I use for major matches. They hang at the same shoulder point.

At this time, I've not had the time to reload using the newly resized bullets. When I do that, I'll mike the results for comparison with SAMMI specs, and with the results from some of the ammo left over from the last reloading batch.

[Tom E]

Beg, borrow, or steal a 0-1" micrometer and a telescoping gauge. Measure the diameter of your brass just above the extractor groove on the rounds that won't chamber. Measure your chamber diameters immediately below the extractor. do it two times at 90 degrees to check for out of round. If the chambers are undersize (very common particularly on 625-8's) and/or your brass is big (brass fired in a semi-auto can be) the rounds won't chamber. You can fuss with your case gauge (might measure it too) all you want but if the chambers are undersize the only fix is to ream the chambers and use a sizing die that squeezes down the brass that's been shot in a semi-auto. Brass that measures .480" won't go in a chamber that measures .476".

For reference:

Reamed 625 chambers: .4805"

Factory Ti 325 chambers (polished): .4795"

Brass sized with Std Lee die: .4700"-.4705"

Brass sized in my SDB: .4725"

My reloads in Fed brass at the "bullet bulge": .4715"

Edited October 2, 2009 by Tom E

[Carmoney]

I tend to agree with Tom E on this one, Stan. If it's a 625-8 we're talking about, you can forget all that other stuff--it's the tight chambers that are causing the problem. Send me the cylinder and I'll ream it to SAAMI spec for you (at no charge) and have it back in your hands in a few days. I've lost track of how many dozen 625-8 cylinders I've reamed for forum members, and it's always fixed the exact problem you're describing.

S&W must have continued to use its reaming equipment long after it was worn out, because virtually every 625-8 I've seen has undersized out-of-spec chambers. When I do the action on a 625-8, I ream the chambers now as a matter of routine.

[Tom E]

S&W must have continued to use its reaming equipment long after it was worn out, because virtually every 625-8 I've seen has undersized out-of-spec chambers. When I do the action on a 625-8, I ream the chambers now as a matter of routine.

I'm thinking it was -2's and some -3's that had a factory recognized tight chamber problem also. They reamed (or replaced?) them under warranty. I had a friends -3 that I think was "factory fixed" and my reamer just rattled around in the chambers. They were plenty big.

[Carmoney]

Yes, the 625-2 "Model of 1988"s were all tight chambered also. They solved the issue somewhere toward the beginning of the -3 series, but I think they continued to use up the -2 cylinders until they were gone.

Many of these guns have been reamed since. Back in '88 (when I bought my first 625), all the big-name gunsmiths had a "625 package" that included the ream job and replacement of the floating hand. Plenty of them were returned to the factory for repair also.

[20nickels]

Mike, you weren't joking about some of the old hens at the S&W forum. I tried helping somebody by suggesting that some 625s were notorious for tight chambers (mine included) and the clucking ensued. Lots of good people there if you wade through the feathers.

[professor]

I tend to agree with Tom E on this one, Stan. If it's a 625-8 we're talking about, you can forget all that other stuff--it's the tight chambers that are causing the problem. Send me the cylinder and I'll ream it to SAAMI spec for you (at no charge) and have it back in your hands in a few days. I've lost track of how many dozen 625-8 cylinders I've reamed for forum members, and it's always fixed the exact problem you're describing.

S&W must have continued to use its reaming equipment long after it was worn out, because virtually every 625-8 I've seen has undersized out-of-spec chambers. When I do the action on a 625-8, I ream the chambers now as a matter of routine.

Haven't been on the forum for a week, and just saw your post. I think you're right about the cylinders needing consistent reaming. I'll get the cylinder packaged up and sent your way tomorrow. Got to get this fixed before Memphis, and I don't have enough loaded for a weekend match this Sunday anyway. [Maybe I'll dig out the 686 and run that for a change]. Thanks for the offer, Mike.

[professor]

OK, the cylinder is on its way to the competent hands of Mr. C.

Yes, it's a 625-8, which I bought used last fall. It's had some trigger work done, with certain non-essential internal parts removed and shoots real nice, but I wasn't aware of the generic tight cylinder problem. I thought it me doing a crummy job of reloading and/or picking bullets to use.

Just a thought. Is the ream job going to affect bullet velocity plus or minus? I don't want to make up a batch of ammo for Memphis and go Minor.