lead bullets tumbling -why?

[TBeazlie]

I wanted to try revolver after shooting limited, limited 10, production, and open. I plan to shoot SS and revolver. Trying to simplyfy my shooting life. So the 625 seemed the way to go. Bought a new 625JM and have managed to make c class. With the price of components increasing I have gone back to casting my own. I use three 6 cavity 230gr Lee TL moulds and I can really crank out these bullets during a loadind session. I use wheel weight or scrap range lead with a little tin. Lube with Alox liquid, Roosters or JPW. They shoot real well from all the 1911s I have but keyhole out of the 625. They mic. at .452. I can not push them through the cylinder, so they do not seem undersized. Moly coated lead bullets the same size work fine. Berrys shoot OK too. Are the gooves too shallow for lead in the 625JM. Anybody else have this problem. Any thought about a solution. I'm going to try some tradition lead 230 gr rn and see if these do better. Oterwise I guess it will be moly coated or Berrys. I was really hoping to have one bullet load for SS and Revo and would like to roll my own so to speak. BTW the load is 4.5 gr Bullseye and WLP for the SS and Federal 150 for the 625 ( if I can get any more primers)

[Toolguy]

It could be the lube. Try some White Label brand Carnuba Wax lube. Make sure your barrel is clean and not leaded up to start with.

[dcarter]

Your cylinder is moving too fast and making the bullets spin out of control down the barrel.

[Ted Murphy]

I had trouble with lead bullets from my Lee Tumble Lube Mold in my 625 too. I never got to the bottom as to why but my wheelgun absolutely hated them, though my 1911's liked them fine.

I thought at the time that since the bullets were a bit oversized (since you don't size them in the traditional sense) and with my chamber throats being a bit tight it might have been a combination of stacked tolerances that the gun didn't like.

Changing the lube as was mentioned above would be worth trying IMO.

Commercially cast bullets didn't tumble like that, FWIW.

Ted

Edited September 20, 2009 by Ted Murphy

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Too much crimp

[Bubber]

Too much crimp

+1

Shoot 5 out of the six and check the unfired one to see if it has moved forward. That could be another sign of too much crimp. One other item if there is not to much crimp, drop your powder charge by 0.5 grains to see if the tumbling stops. If you have a chrony make sure you are getting the velocities you are looking for. later rdd

[M109R]

Guys Wheel Weights are only 2-3% antimony with a trace of tin. Most commercial cast bullets are 6% antimony with 2% tin. Antimony is what makes the lead hard and the tin combines the lead with the antimony. You bullets are to soft to endure the jump from the cylinder to the barrel to engage the rifling. I have found thebulletworks.net uses 8% antimony with 2% tin which makes there bullets really hard which should work better in a revolver.

[8ring]

Check the size of the cylinder throats. Gunsmiths have plug gauges that will show the exact diameter. If the cylinder throats are undersized, the bullets will be swaged down to .451" or less and may cause all sorts of problems with both accuracy and leading.

Harder bullets may be the answer, but I've shot thousand of Missouri Bullet Works 230gr "Soft Ball" (15 Brinell hardness) out of both of my 625s without any problems. That said, the rifling on both 625s is pretty shallow and a harder bullet may, all other things being equal, a little more accurate.

Stick with it. Many folks use either lead or moly-coated lead in their 625s with complete success.

Chris

[Boats]

625's will shoot lead keep after it.

Could be a lot of things but simple way to sort it out is shoot some store bought cast 230's see how they work. I am pretty suspicious of wheel weights today very little lead in them. If the factory bullets work OK try some ready mix 1/25 tin-lead from someone like Bill Ferguson www.theantamonyman. If that works you know it's the alloy, If not it's the mold.

One more thing cranking them out and quality bullets most times don't mix. It's possible your alloy is too cool from fast pours, the bullets may not be filling out. Does everything tumble or just some. Do you run a thermometer in the pot ? It's a cheap way to insure good bullets.

Boats

[jmorris]

Buy lead already alloyed properly for bullets then cast and weigh the bullets, this is what you’re going for. Out of a 230 grain mold I can vary the bullet weight from 214 grains (pure silver solder and very hard) all the way to 240 grains (pure lead). Using Lyman "pre mix" lead they came out 232 but I like them a little harder so I cut in Linotype lead along with WW until they come out of the mold at 230.

Edited September 22, 2009 by jmorris

[sargenv]

I disagree with the bullets being too soft. Lots of people over the years have used straight wheel weights to cast lead for all kinds of guns, revolvers and semi's. I've been using a combination of WW and 92-6-2 and am thinking about trying straight WW's since so many other people have had good luck. I water quench my bullets out of the mold for an increased hardness with the .25% arsenic that the WW's contain. With the WW and 92-6-2 blend at 50-50, I get 15 BHN as cast and after about 5 days the BHN rises to 20.

When I started casting, I had a .40 cal pointed RN made up to look similar to the 170 gr Bear creek .38. Mine came out at 185 gr with the above mix. I found that at any velocity under 700 fps I too was getting unstable and tumbling bullets but no apparent leading. Once I increased the speed to about 800 fps and above the bullets started to stabilize and accuracy improved. If the bullets are not leading, I would say that the WW's are hard enough and you may want to increase velocity and see if that stabilizes them.

I have fired my cast initially out of a S&W 610-2 and 2 - 610-3's with no problems and have now started using them in a Para P16-40.

Most casters use a 2% tin mix not due to it alloying better with the Antimony, but that it's use is more a "wetting" agent. In other words, it helps the bullet fill out better, but anything more than 2% is generally considered a waste.

Edited September 23, 2009 by sargenv

[revchuck]

I disagree with the bullets being too soft.

+1. Back when I was casting my own bullets, I used wheelweights for everything other than full power magnum revolver loads. My 1917 liked them as well as any other gun. Until recently I used swaged 158 grain RNLs for my .38 Special IDPA loads (~830 fps), only changing due to smoke and increased price, and had no problems with either leading or tumbling.

I'd look at either the crimp or the powder. Too fast a powder can also lead to tumbling, though I don't think that this is the problem here.

[Edubya]

I dunno but a 22 with an 8 BHN bullet doesn't lead or tumble. I've read that Elmer ran .44's to over that speed with his 12 BHN cast bullets. He was using the equivalent of beeswax and Crisco for lube. If you're crimping too tight it might be deforming the bullet's base to prevent proper obturation. It may be in the lube. I've shot many .38 WC that were around 9 BHN with a mouse fart load and if I jacked up that load just 100 fps it would tumble.

This is one of the things that keep my interest up in casting and reloading, if it were just simply casting and shooting, everybody would be doing it. It's not for the weak of character, success of the non-intimidated is so sweet and fulfilling.

good luck,

EW

[Boats]

Agree on too soft rarely being a problem. About the only reason for harder is feeding from auto pistol mags. "hard cast" sounds good in advertising but too hard causes problems of it's own. This for bullets that are not going real fast like in the 45 acp or 38 special,

On the tin. Also agree you don't need a lot. It melts at a lower temp than lead and helps the bullet fill out in the mold. No doubt tin is harder than lead but in the alloy it's hardly going to change the finished bullets hardness at all. When I suggest 1/25 or 4% tin it's because I have that alloy on hand for two cranky Schuetzen bullet molds that are nose pour and hard to fill out. Pistol bullets way less tin will give a good fill out. 1/25 will also compensate for erratic casting methods like inconsistent temp or pour techniques. Easy flow covers errors.

Having said all this I only cast for firearms that have to have a 'perfect" cast bullet or no factory bullets avalable. My pistols always use factory cast from a small local outfit. It's just too much trouble to cast for the 2-3000 45 acp's I load per year.

Boats