Suggested Rule Modification for Poppers

[COMATZD]

When it doesn't fall from a hit in the calibration zone, we refuse to call it a failure. Instead we bring out the

calibration gun and shoot it again.

We have, I think, the unwarranted belief that the result of this shot

provides any information on the state of the popper before the competitor

shot it once, twice , or however many times.

I would make the assumption that the competitor's shot was at least as

powerful as the calibration shot, and the popper failed to recognize that

power.

I think this is the key to this whole issue as well. At the club level power factor is usually taken at face value and in larger matches the chrono tells the truth. If a popper fails to fall from a proper hit, this seems to be a failure.

[Jadeslade]

So-is this ready to send to my AD?

[JThompson]

One of my thoughts on the matter is a challenge card. Each shooter would have a challenge card that is good for one challenge of a popper AFTER it has been knocked down. The popper would be reset by the RO and the RM would shoot it with calibrated gun and ammo and if it fails the shooter would be offered a reshoot. ...

The problem with this is that many popper designs do not reset consistently. That is, it is possible to set the popper "heavy" or "light" without actually adjusting it. In my experience this accounts for the vast majority of mis-calibrated poppers, at least at Level I. So if you had such a design and were to reset the popper before firing the calibration shot, you would completely invalidate the test.

While there is something to the idea, suggested by another poster, that forward-falling poppers be mandated, I think a better first step would be to mandate designs that set consistently.

I've shot and reset a lot of poppers and I have not found this to be the case, but even if it was the first shot would be taken with the popper still standing unless it was driven down. Then an RO would reset it properly and the shot would be taken. This would work a hell of a lot better than what we have now and WOULD have worked in the case we are talking about on the other thread where the popper was out of adjustment. There will always be ways something can fail that we can not have a rule for, what this rule will do is help close the gap. Nothing will be perfect, but I think this is as close as we can come. If this is the biggest "problem" you can find with this, I think it's the best route to go.

You can not mandate designs because 3/4 of the clubs out there would not be able to comply. What we need to do is make what we have work the best we can, and I think this rule would do that.

JT

[JThompson]

So-is this ready to send to my AD?

You place the onus on the RO to call a shot he may not be able to see... Also, we need to eliminate anything arbitrary if we can. I don't think this does that.

Best,

JT

[wide45]

So-is this ready to send to my AD?

Nope

How do match officials know if the popper was hit in the calibration zone?

Edited September 20, 2009 by wide45

[Glen]

So-is this ready to send to my AD?

Nope

How do match officials know if the popper was hit in the calibration zone?

Same as right now, if they want to look.

Rule 4.3.1.7 mandates the painting of poppers after each shooter. An exemption

for level 1 matches exists (4.3.1.7.1) but that would be removed.

Glen

[Nik Habicht]

The huge problem with looking for hits and stopping the shooter is the time delay --- the better the shooter, the less likely that they'd be stopped, as they'd shoot the popper down, prior to the RO making the call.....

D class shooters would get re-shoots, Masters and GMs not so much.....

[SA Friday]

One of my thoughts on the matter is a challenge card. Each shooter would have a challenge card that is good for one challenge of a popper AFTER it has been knocked down. The popper would be reset by the RO and the RM would shoot it with calibrated gun and ammo and if it fails the shooter would be offered a reshoot. ...

The problem with this is that many popper designs do not reset consistently. That is, it is possible to set the popper "heavy" or "light" without actually adjusting it. In my experience this accounts for the vast majority of mis-calibrated poppers, at least at Level I. So if you had such a design and were to reset the popper before firing the calibration shot, you would completely invalidate the test.

While there is something to the idea, suggested by another poster, that forward-falling poppers be mandated, I think a better first step would be to mandate designs that set consistently.

I've shot and reset a lot of poppers and I have not found this to be the case, but even if it was the first shot would be taken with the popper still standing unless it was driven down. Then an RO would reset it properly and the shot would be taken. This would work a hell of a lot better than what we have now and WOULD have worked in the case we are talking about on the other thread where the popper was out of adjustment. There will always be ways something can fail that we can not have a rule for, what this rule will do is help close the gap. Nothing will be perfect, but I think this is as close as we can come. If this is the biggest "problem" you can find with this, I think it's the best route to go.

You can not mandate designs because 3/4 of the clubs out there would not be able to comply. What we need to do is make what we have work the best we can, and I think this rule would do that.

JT

JT, I think what Noah is talking about is many of the clubs here in CO use FFP's with an arm mechanism holding the popper up. If the arm is placed high on the bolt head that the arm rests on, you can get a popper that will not fall. The majority of the time, if the FFP was set like this the calibration shot will fail too. There have been a couple failures that I wasn't too sure about the original setting and they fell on calibration, but it's pretty rare. The clubs using these FFP's have acutally modified many of the bolt heads to signify where to set the rod. To date, these are the most reliably designed poppers I've used. They will stand up to 30-40 mph winds and if set light enough fall from a .22lr strike, at the same setting.

[JThompson]

One of my thoughts on the matter is a challenge card. Each shooter would have a challenge card that is good for one challenge of a popper AFTER it has been knocked down. The popper would be reset by the RO and the RM would shoot it with calibrated gun and ammo and if it fails the shooter would be offered a reshoot. ...

The problem with this is that many popper designs do not reset consistently. That is, it is possible to set the popper "heavy" or "light" without actually adjusting it. In my experience this accounts for the vast majority of mis-calibrated poppers, at least at Level I. So if you had such a design and were to reset the popper before firing the calibration shot, you would completely invalidate the test.

While there is something to the idea, suggested by another poster, that forward-falling poppers be mandated, I think a better first step would be to mandate designs that set consistently.

I've shot and reset a lot of poppers and I have not found this to be the case, but even if it was the first shot would be taken with the popper still standing unless it was driven down. Then an RO would reset it properly and the shot would be taken. This would work a hell of a lot better than what we have now and WOULD have worked in the case we are talking about on the other thread where the popper was out of adjustment. There will always be ways something can fail that we can not have a rule for, what this rule will do is help close the gap. Nothing will be perfect, but I think this is as close as we can come. If this is the biggest "problem" you can find with this, I think it's the best route to go.

You can not mandate designs because 3/4 of the clubs out there would not be able to comply. What we need to do is make what we have work the best we can, and I think this rule would do that.

JT

JT, I think what Noah is talking about is many of the clubs here in CO use FFP's with an arm mechanism holding the popper up. If the arm is placed high on the bolt head that the arm rests on, you can get a popper that will not fall. The majority of the time, if the FFP was set like this the calibration shot will fail too. There have been a couple failures that I wasn't too sure about the original setting and they fell on calibration, but it's pretty rare. The clubs using these FFP's have acutally modified many of the bolt heads to signify where to set the rod. To date, these are the most reliably designed poppers I've used. They will stand up to 30-40 mph winds and if set light enough fall from a .22lr strike, at the same setting.

Gotcha,

That would seem to be easy to address at the squad level by doing a quick demo. Perhaps we could also just look at the latch mechanism and make it so there is only one way to set it. There is also the possibility the rear lifting when resetting a rearward faller. No solution is going to be 100%, but were talking about making it better without breaking the bank, or asking the RO to be omniscient. I think the rules addition I propose would cut the gotcha factor in half, maybe more and would not require a major rules revamp, nor the clubs to buy thousands of dollars worth of new steel.

Is it perfect? Nope, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

JT

Edited September 21, 2009 by JThompson

[Jadeslade]

So-is this ready to send to my AD?

Nope

How do match officials know if the popper was hit in the calibration zone?

No paint off-no hit. Just like now.

You place the onus on the RO to call a shot he may not be able to see... Also, we need to eliminate anything arbitrary if we can. I don't think this does that.

Best,

JT

I think if you can't see it, it's not there. Lots of times poppers get hit, theres a clang, nothing happens, 'cause they are hit at the bottom. I agree about nothing arbitrary-any suggestions?

The huge problem with looking for hits and stopping the shooter is the time delay --- the better the shooter, the less likely that they'd be stopped, as they'd shoot the popper down, prior to the RO making the call.....

D class shooters would get re-shoots, Masters and GMs not so much.....

Nik I think that could be a problem-that is why my first suggestion simply modified the current rule a little, leaving a lot intact. My second suggestion was after Glen pointed out that if the calibration is correct, there should be no need for what to do if popper doesn't fall-it should fall if hit and if it doesn't, it's a miss. The hammer it down syndrome has been in response to poppers not falling correctly (other than hammering them for faster activation like in short speed stages)-I think that would go away eventually. Poppers need tender loving care and have not been getting it. DVC

Gotta go watch the Giants.

[Nik Habicht]

Poppers need tender loving care and have not been getting it. DVC

They should get that --- mostly during set-up and running of the match. I haven't seen anything other than Alan's suggestion that seems like it would make things more consistent without also making it very RO dependent.....

If you think about it most of the RO calls made on the clock have to do with safety (ignoring Nationals type stage with 3-5 working ROs looking for things like foot faults). Most scoring calls are made off the clock....

Gotta go watch the Giants.

Did they start playing baseball or football on a range? :roflol:

[JThompson]

I haven't seen anything other than Alan's suggestion that seems like it would make things more consistent without also making it very RO dependent

Ya haven't heh?

Edited September 21, 2009 by JThompson

[Chills1994]

My version for a new rule would keep the RO looking at the gun during the stage.

If the RO notices a balky popper...a popper that takes 2 or more hits to fall, then he just lets the shooter continue the stage, after "unload and show clear...ifclearhammerdownholster!...Range is clear!", then the RO just shows the timer's display to the scorekeeper. He doesn't call the time out, just yet.

Then everyone goes forward and first checks the balky popper, if there are 2 good hits or more in the calibration zone, then the RO asks the shooter if he wants a re-shoot.

If the shooter wants a re-shoot, then everything gets reset, repainted and pasted, and that shooter's scoresheet goes to the bottom of the rotation to allow him to load up his mags again and to collect/compose himself.

If the shooter doesn't want a reshoot, then the RO calls out the time and then the scorekeeper records that. Then the rest of the scoring continues on like normal.

If there is a hit or multiple hits NOT in the calibration zone, then the RO goes ahead and calls out the time and scoring presses on, just like normal.

I haven't thought it out all that well just yet, but it would be nice if there was some caveat in there for if the RO can clearly see the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or more good hits in the calibration zone, the RO can use his discretion to stop the shooter right then and there.

If you're the RO and you can hear DING! DING! and DING! and there is NO corresponding CRASH!, I think your attention naturally gets diverted from the shooter's gun to the popper.

as far as the new Forward Falling poppers goes... really, if there is someone handy in the club with a torch or a plasma cutter or maybe even a drill with the right bits, a local club or any club wishing to host a Level II match or higher doesn't have to scrap all their old rearward falling poppers.

Just "mill" a slot for the latch, weld a couple of brackets across the base of the popper , attach the spring loaded latch, and VOILA! a "new" FFP .

Yeah, I have seen the other poppers with the split bottoms that just sit on the angle iron base. I do like those because it is so easy to lift off the popper and carry that by itself, and then come back for the popper's base. I don't have to worry about straining my back like I do with the current popper designs. I also don't have to worry about smashing my hands or fingers either. Besides not having the pin or the hinge binding, the split bottom design also keeps the falling popper from lever'ing the base out of the ground each time it falls.

[Jadeslade]

If you think about it most of the RO calls made on the clock have to do with safety (ignoring Nationals type stage with 3-5 working ROs looking for things like foot faults). Most scoring calls are made off the clock....

Yeah-I think that's just custom now, here's Vince's take on watching (here it is again )Advice for ROs-I can't say it any better -it just not that hard-really we all do it every weekend-these aren't 40yd shots at non-electric pop-up targets-it is white steel 10-18yds in daylight. I know you can do it. Do you think this is too hard for some ROs?

edited for content

Edited September 21, 2009 by Jadeslade

[wide45]

So-is this ready to send to my AD?

Nope

How do match officials know if the popper was hit in the calibration zone?

Same as right now, if they want to look.

Rule 4.3.1.7 mandates the painting of poppers after each shooter. An exemption

for level 1 matches exists (4.3.1.7.1) but that would be removed.

Glen

Making it a rule won't help. The clubs that don't paint, won't paint.

[larry cazes]

Why not just submit it to your AD if you think it is an improvement?

[Jadeslade]

Because of this :

So-is this ready to send to my AD?

Nope

How do match officials know if the popper was hit in the calibration zone?

This post has been edited by wide45: Yesterday, 05:20 PM

I want it to pass if I send it to my AD.

[Chills1994]

I think with the big stink that has happened with poppers this past week, any USPSA'er who even just takes a passing glance at the BE forums or even talks about the forums or the Nat's at matches would now realize that it would really behoove them to paint steel/poppers between shooters even at the local level. Especially right before it is their turn to shoot.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Chills1994

[BSeevers]

If you think about it most of the RO calls made on the clock have to do with safety (ignoring Nationals type stage with 3-5 working ROs looking for things like foot faults). Most scoring calls are made off the clock....

Yeah-I think that's just custom now, here's Vince's take on watching (here it is again )Advice for ROs-I can't say it any better -it just not that hard-really we all do it every weekend-these aren't 40yd shots at non-electric pop-up targets-it is white steel 10-18yds in daylight. I know you can do it. Do you think this is too hard for some ROs?

edited for content

Yes it is.

[LPatterson]

JT, I think what Noah is talking about is many of the clubs here in CO use FFP's with an arm mechanism holding the popper up. If the arm is placed high on the bolt head that the arm rests on, you can get a popper that will not fall. The majority of the time, if the FFP was set like this the calibration shot will fail too. There have been a couple failures that I wasn't too sure about the original setting and they fell on calibration, but it's pretty rare. The clubs using these FFP's have acutally modified many of the bolt heads to signify where to set the rod. To date, these are the most reliably designed poppers I've used. They will stand up to 30-40 mph winds and if set light enough fall from a .22lr strike, at the same setting.

Area 1 used some of the poppers made as you pictured (except they were all one color as required per 4.1.2.2) and gusts of wind still blew some of them over. My squad had 5 reshoots on that one stage of all steel.

I am not opposed to rule changes, just make them cut & dry so I am not required to make a ruling that is not the same for every shooter. None of the changes advocated seem to be any better than the way current rules read.

[Jadeslade]

Some ROs have expressed concern about stopping the course of fire during the run. I think the issue is allowing ROs to put up a popper that is down, but clearly not functioning correctly, recalibrate it, and give the shooter a reshoot if they desire it. So here is my original suggestion, which modified the current language very little. The issue is that if a popper is not going down with a good hit,i.e, in calibration zone or above, it is not calibrated correctly or is not functioning correctly and is not offering a fair course for all. We can't change all the steel, but we can give the ROs a chance to rectify a problem that they wish to, but are not allowed by current rules. Whatever the genesis of the current IPSC/USPA rules for popper not falling; gaming, it takes too long, whatever-it should be allowed in the rules to correct an error and give a reshoot. I do not think we will see any more reshoots than we see now with wind and other REF. Here it is: The reason I am posting this is for language clarification or improvement-grunts yay or nay are not helpful. The language needs to be tweaked.

[LPatterson]

Jadeslade - I don't think the lastest change is there yet as it has the RO stopping the shooter for a problem that may not exist or the RO is not in a position to see the actual hits. The rule needs to provide for a method where the shooter can challenge the calibration like a paper target scoring challenge. The popper is left as shot until the calibration offical arrives to inspect and reset and paint the popper then it will be checked for calibration. If the popper falls to a proper calibration shot, the original time will be used and the COF scored. If the popper fails calibration or an improper calibration shot was made, the shooter will be required to reshoot the COF.

[larry cazes]

Jadeslade - I don't think the lastest change is there yet as it has the RO stopping the shooter for a problem that may not exist or the RO is not in a position to see the actual hits. The rule needs to provide for a method where the shooter can challenge the calibration like a paper target scoring challenge. The popper is left as shot until the calibration offical arrives to inspect and reset and paint the popper then it will be checked for calibration. If the popper falls to a proper calibration shot, the original time will be used and the COF scored. If the popper fails calibration or an improper calibration shot was made, the shooter will be required to reshoot the COF.

Kinda sounds similiar to what we have today

[LPatterson]

Kinda but allows for a calibration check of a downed popper.

[Jadeslade]

Yes that is the idea I am trying to get at-the least change that will allow an RO to rectify a problem, without creating an issue. Let me go back and look at Alan Meek''s proposal and I'll try to tweak the words a little. Thanks.