Nik Habicht Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Rich, sounds like your competitor should avail himself of the NROI complaint procedure. Personally, I don't think I'd invoke 10.6 in this particular situation (if it was invoked to punish not working the match), but I also would expect a grown-up who committed to working a match to fulfill his obligation to do so. I'm not sure this incident would fall into the category of understandable obstacle to fulfilling a commitment..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 (edited) Nik, Normally I'd agree with you on the fulfulling a commitment part, but let's put it simply this way. Had the competitor showed up to RO the next day, there'd have probably been a fight and he chose the high road and paid his full match fee. Rich ETA: There were NO shortage of RO's either in case there is a concern of it's hard to find RO's to work a match. Edited August 30, 2009 by uscbigdawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 So what if it's a local Level I match where the scores aren't processed and finalized for a day or two?(just muddying the waters a bit...) I'd say you run the risk of a match DQ until the stages are torn down and the range is returned to the control of the hosting facility. Realistically, that's never been a problem locally, and we've recovered the odd dropped gun during teardown, where someone forgot to bag in the safety area prior to helping with putting props away..... Yeah, but taken literally it doesn't matter if the stages are torn down, it doesn't matter if you're done shooting for the day, all that matters is whether the scores have been declared final by the MD. I think it'd be a bit much to DQ someone after the stages are torn down, but it sure seems like it would be possible using a strict interpretation of the rules. Kinda tough to do that though, once the range staff have left the facility..... Some of this will always come down to the indiviuals running the matches. I've been to great matches, good matches, and fair matches, as far as officiating equity and quality were concerned. I expect to encounter all three types in the future. Some match directors would like to improve/are open to suggestions or discussions; others aren't. I don't usually return to "My way or the Highway" type matches. Clarifying the rules won't help in those situations -- the individuals involved have decided how to run their events, they're not open to suggestions or to rulebook revisions or interpretations..... It's in some ways akin to passing new laws outlawing certain behaviors --- the people who obey the new legislation weren't the problem in the first place.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 I can see where the confusion arises, especially given the wording of the rules for side matches. In the past, we've had some steel shoots at PASA, on some of the Master's equipment, and a DQ there cost you the match. (Different rules) I think, because of the wording of the rules now, we can have a side match, such as the Steel Challenge event we had last year and will have again this year, and that "stage" or side event is considered separate. At least, that's how we did it last year with the blessing of the DNROI. One other thing with that is that we provided the guns and ammo--no issues with using your own equipment--and I think most of the people who tried it out did it after they put their own gear away for the day. Not that their match was over, but they were done with stages for that day. Other than using the supplied gun and ammo, none of those other things were required, it just worked out that way. I know that some people did shoot it using their own gun, but those runs didn't count towards the overall results. In the original post, the DQ would stand. Someone hitting your truck, and you yelling at them, well, if I were RM, I'd be yelling at them too, even if the match wasn't "over". We do try to temper these things with a little common sense. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) At our Section Championship, several years ago, one of our shooters had just completed his last stage. He had won the match hands down. In the process of praising himself and talking (very loudly) about how well he had shot the match...he walks over to the safe area; puts his bag on the table; and starts emptying bullets from his mags into his shooting bag (while still bragging about how well he shot). He was done. DQ. The RM (I think it was Hurst) stated that the match in fact was not over and that all rules applied (there were still competitors shooting). BTW - the DQ was arbitrated and the ruling was against the shooter on the basis that the match had not ended because the 1 hour period was not complete and the scores had not been certified. Edited August 31, 2009 by Jack Suber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Gman, For the sake of your argument... The shooter finishes shooting his match. You are saying the rules should no longer apply since his match is over? So the shooter can go around the range carrying his gun in his hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDM Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 You've finished the match and go to the safe area to take mags off your belt. Another guy comes up and starts practicing reloads with his unloaded mags but picks one of yours up mistake. His were unloaded so he wasn't breaking 10.5.12. Now he gets a DQ (I assume) partly because of your actions. I'm not sure about wording it in the rule book but we shouldn't be handling ammo, loaded mags, etc. in safe areas before, during, or after matches. The convenience of a table isn't worth something bad happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 The shooter finishes shooting his match. You are saying the rules should no longer apply since his match is over? So the shooter can go around the range carrying his gun in his hand? It would sure be more fun if I could go ahead and spin my revolver on my finger cowboy style right out in front of everybody after my match is complete, instead of always having to go find one of those plastic porta-potties...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegot38 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 One of the reasons I find rules discussions here so valuable is that they often illuminate problems in search of a solution. While you started out looking for a rules change or clarification; I walk away from this discussion having a much better plan for incorporating a simultaneous side-match into a USPSA match. If we ever revive the Mid-Atlantic Sectional, and if we get interest for a sidematch, we may hold it as a separate or as a simultaneous but separate event --- in either case we'll clearly communicate the policies to the competitors..... Nik: I'm in for a Mid Atlantic!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 You've finished the match and go to the safe area to take mags off your belt. Another guy comes up and starts practicing reloads with his unloaded mags but picks one of yours up mistake. His were unloaded so he wasn't breaking 10.5.12. Now he gets a DQ (I assume) partly because of your actions. I'm not sure about wording it in the rule book but we shouldn't be handling ammo, loaded mags, etc. in safe areas before, during, or after matches. The convenience of a table isn't worth something bad happening. But, if he picked up your mag and popped it into his gun by mistake, you, by default, should be DQ'd as well, since you removed the loaded mags from your belt while in the safe area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 Gman,For the sake of your argument... The shooter finishes shooting his match. You are saying the rules should no longer apply since his match is over? So the shooter can go around the range carrying his gun in his hand? I'm actually not suggesting that in the OP the shooter shouldn't be DQ'd I'm suggesting that it's a bit fuzzy. In a similar fashion I think the guy walking around with a gun in his hand should be DQ'd as well. No matter how we slice it, the rules have a specific section about side events that are "later" which adds some murkiness to the water and we have the question about situations where the results aren't posted and "final" until days after the event is over. All I'm suggesting is that just as we give a very specific definition of when an individual competitor's stage attempt is complete, we should do the same for the competitor's "match" versus the match as a whole. I'm 100% against safety violations and in some ways the more clear we make the rules the more carefully people will follow them. I know for a fact that there are a LOT of carry guns stashed in people's vehicles while they shoot a match and those guns go from the glove box or under the seats to their belt while still on range property after the stages have been torn down or after that person has finished all the stages and is heading home. Now, if the scores haven't been declared final, that's a DQ right? Still, I've never heard of it actually getting called out. Yes, provisions are supposed to be made for people carrying, but how many times do we see that actually taken advantage of. I have my own way of handling it that complies with the rules, but I know not everyone does something similar. In a similar fashion, just hang out in the parking lot before or after a match and you'll see match guns get put in or taken out of gun rugs, moved around, or generally handled without being in a safe area. All might well be DQ's but it sort of flies under the radar. Some people might not realize that it could be a DQ and might do the right thing if the rules are a little more clear. Our sport doesn't need anybody getting popped with a 115gr JHP going 1500fps out of an Open gun in the parking lot and maybe a little clarification of the rules might make that less likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDM Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 You've finished the match and go to the safe area to take mags off your belt. Another guy comes up and starts practicing reloads with his unloaded mags but picks one of yours up mistake. His were unloaded so he wasn't breaking 10.5.12. Now he gets a DQ (I assume) partly because of your actions. I'm not sure about wording it in the rule book but we shouldn't be handling ammo, loaded mags, etc. in safe areas before, during, or after matches. The convenience of a table isn't worth something bad happening. But, if he picked up your mag and popped it into his gun by mistake, you, by default, should be DQ'd as well, since you removed the loaded mags from your belt while in the safe area. That is is the question posed in the OP - if you've finished your last stage can you be disqualified? When is your match finished and should it be more clearly defined in the rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 You've finished the match and go to the safe area to take mags off your belt. Another guy comes up and starts practicing reloads with his unloaded mags but picks one of yours up mistake. His were unloaded so he wasn't breaking 10.5.12. Now he gets a DQ (I assume) partly because of your actions. I'm not sure about wording it in the rule book but we shouldn't be handling ammo, loaded mags, etc. in safe areas before, during, or after matches. The convenience of a table isn't worth something bad happening. But, if he picked up your mag and popped it into his gun by mistake, you, by default, should be DQ'd as well, since you removed the loaded mags from your belt while in the safe area. That is is the question posed in the OP - if you've finished your last stage can you be disqualified? When is your match finished and should it be more clearly defined in the rulebook. The answer is: yes. Just finishing your stages doesn't mean the match is over, and any safety infractions on your part are subject to DQ. USC is also still possible. Until the scores are final, the match is still running. It could be more clearly defined with regards to all level of match, but it should be simple enough for the MD at a match that scores "at home" to declare the match as final at some point in time--the competitors have to accept that once the stages are torn down, there isn't a chance to reshoot, and they are also accepting that the scoring will be done at some later point in time. Handling guns in the parking lot is still a no-no. Making club members aware of this fact will go a long way to add to the safety of your matches. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Let's say you are driving home from the match just kiddin', I'm staying out of this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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