Steel must fall before engaging Paper? Rule

[COF]

Ok, Craig, don't be shy. Tell us how you really feel

Jerry

[Steve Koski]

Bones,

Steel is really fun to shoot, and in the real world targets (bad guys) are reactive and go down if hit in the right places, enough, with sufficiently powerful ammo. An FBI agent buddy of mine really likes poppers, because they make you shoot more like you would in combat, "got to shoot this guy to the ground", not just blast two quick ones his way and move on.

You're right, it does complicate things though. I think the clarification should be:

Falling steel has been engaged when it has fallen. Paper has been engaged when the required number of shots have been fired.

Koski

Edited August 21, 2009 by Steve Koski

[rvb]

I think the clarification should be:

Falling steel has been engaged when it has fallen.

Seems then you could not 'pie' farther around cover until the steel is on the ground w/o a cover call...

That would take a long time [zzzzzzzz....] and too many variables in how long it takes to fall (where it's hit/pf).

Seems a common sense sol'n is to paint between shooters and if it doesn't fall w/ a full dia hit from the bottom of the cal-zone and up it's a reshoot.

-rvb

[Bones]

I completely agree Steve - it is fun. It can be both fun and in appropriate for IDPA, right? I shoot a lot of steel. I like it. I just don't think steel for steel's sake has any part in an IDPA stage.

Engaged means "shot at". Why is that definition deficient?

It is always faster to hit something the first time. If a shooter has to engage something twice, they're already losing.

Craig

[RobMoore]

Also good. No need to penalize a shooter with a +3 cover call for missing the steel, as long as they return to a position of cover to do so, just like making up a shot on a previous target. Having to come back and reengage it is penalty enough.

Edited August 21, 2009 by RobMoore

[Flexmoney]

No one has ever had to defend themselves against a steel popper 30 feet away. Ever. Poppers are pretty slow, even I can out run one.

I just don't think steel for steel's sake has any part in an IDPA stage.

Cardboard at 10 paces is a proper representation though?

[Ben Stoeger]

Engaged means "shot at". Why is that definition deficient?

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. If one fires a shot at a popper, they have engaged it. Thus, they can not be penalized for failing to engage it.

[Bill Nesbitt]

Can anyone tell me where I can find the definition of "engaged" in the rule book?

Or is it whatever the written stage briefing says?

[RobMoore]

We could fill volumes with what isn't spelled out in the rulebook, but is supposedly implied.

Engaged to me, in this scenario anyway, means "shot at".

[Bill Nesbitt]

Engaged to me, in this scenario anyway, means "shot at".

One shot or two on paper?

[RobMoore]

Normally two, unless the COF says three.

Yes, some COFs say "steel until fallen", but the point of argument is that you aren't given a cover procedural for firing 2 misses at a paper target and moving on, so why should steel be different?

Edited August 22, 2009 by RobMoore

[Chris Christian]

Put one scenario in front of five SOs and you can get five different answers. That's the problem with some parts of the current Rule Book. In this case I think it all comes down to the COF description. If it says "steel must be engaged" then ya got to shot a round at it. "Engage" doesn't mean "hit"... it just means shoot at it. If you engage in proper order you can wander on down the target line... and come back to pick up misses without incurring a procedural. If the COF says " neutalize" then the steel has to fall before the shooter moves on. At least, that's the way this SO sees it. If the MD writes the COF properly, this shouldn't be an issue.

Chris Christian

[majormarine]

I just shot a great regional match, the match was great not my shooting! But there was one "rule" concerning steel engagement. The COF had a mixture of steel and paper, the steel was to be "engaged" before the paper. The COF also stated that the steel had to "Fall" before moving to the paper or it was a procedural. My limited experience with steel in IDPA is that it must be engaged (shot at, not necessarily hit) to be considered engaged, not fall. My understanding is that the shooter will get a 5 second penalty if any steel is left standing, so most shooters would return to any steel that they missed or failed to knock down on the first shot.

This is no big deal but to someone like me who shoots too fast for my skill level I end up waiting on steel poppers to fall before moving on to the next target.

What are the thoughts out there?

This was quite possibly the best organized and run match that I have been too. Awesome job to all involved!!!!!!!!!

David E.

As an SO the only guide I have beyond the rule book is the COF good or bad. If the COF is discussed with all the competitors then there is not excuse for not following it. A poor COF can drive an SO crazy especially if there are dedicated gamers trying to shave time by using their own interpetation. COF's need to be KISS (keep it simple stupid). If the COF says "Popper must be engaged until down" end of story.

[sanman]

If the COF says "Popper must be engaged until down" end of story.

I don't necessarily agree. If the course designer put specifications into his design that are not in line with IDPA rules, I think that they are unenforceable.

[COF]

I don't necessarily agree. If the course designer put specifications into his design that are not in line with IDPA rules, I think that they are unenforceable.

I disagree. Why is putting stipulations into the COF that the steel must fall before advancing not in line with IDPA rules? The rules define Tactical Priority, ie, slicing the pie, in this scenario. Each target must be engaged by slicing the pie before going to the next target. As a matter of practicality, we consider targets neutralized when the shooter has shot at them and don't require them to be definitively neutralized. We do this because not all shooters have the capability to call their shots and determine whether or not they have hit the target the required number of times - when shooting at paper. Everyone who shoots IDPA should be able to tell when steel has been hit and/or falls. As a reactive target there is an expectation that it should fall when engaged and neutralized. This is clearly definable. By writing in the course of fire "Steel must fall to be considered neutralized" the designer has defined neutralized for the scenario.

The simplest way around this is to make the steel an activator instead of just setting it out there as another target. That forces the shooter to knock the steel down or take multiple penalties

Just my thoughts on a Monday morning...

Jerry

Edited August 24, 2009 by COF

[Steve Koski]

"If the COF says "Popper must be engaged until down" end of story."

I don't necessarily agree. If the course designer put specifications into his design that are not in line with IDPA rules, I think that they are unenforceable.

Sanman,

If you take this attitude to a major match you will be in for a long day full of arguements with SO's and the MD.

Many times the COF is written poorly, yes, even at sanctioned matches. Sometimes the COF doesn't comply with the rule book guidelines (targets <2 yards apart, shooter required to engage them near to far - seen that one many times, lots of other examples). Don't argue about it, just shoot the stage.

Other times the course walk through will include requirements that are not written on paper, such as "You must shoot these first, then these" or "you must reload here." In which case you should get clarification that the new requirement is real, and will be the same for everyone. Once you've got clarification, just shoot the stage.

If you persist in arguing every possible point, you will have a bad day, and you will make those around you very unhappy. No match is perfect, and you have to get beyond that at some point.

Koski

[Steve Koski]

I completely agree Steve - it is fun. It can be both fun and in appropriate for IDPA, right? I shoot a lot of steel. I like it. I just don't think steel for steel's sake has any part in an IDPA stage.

Engaged means "shot at". Why is that definition deficient?

It is always faster to hit something the first time. If a shooter has to engage something twice, they're already losing.

Craig

Bones,

There are two ways this could go. You could say engaged means "shot at the required number of times" and just leave it at that. I'm OK with that. It is clear.

The second way is to say that steel must be hit (if non-falling type) or fall (if falling type) to be "engaged." I prefer this, as it makes the sport more defensively oriented, as previously discussed.

Koski

[Bill Nesbitt]

No match is perfect, and you have to get beyond that at some point.

Koski

Steve, words of wisdom. Thanks.

Shooting is too much fun to take it too seriously.

Bill

[Fireant]

I completely agree Steve - it is fun. It can be both fun and in appropriate for IDPA, right? I shoot a lot of steel. I like it. I just don't think steel for steel's sake has any part in an IDPA stage.

Engaged means "shot at". Why is that definition deficient?

It is always faster to hit something the first time. If a shooter has to engage something twice, they're already losing.

Craig

Bones,

There are two ways this could go. You could say engaged means "shot at the required number of times" and just leave it at that. I'm OK with that. It is clear.

The second way is to say that steel must be hit (if non-falling type) or fall (if falling type) to be "engaged." I prefer this, as it makes the sport more defensively oriented, as previously discussed.

Koski

Wouldn't you need to say that all paper needs to be nutralized before moving to the next paper, to keep it defensively oriented? Engaged should be the same for all targets, and the COF description should not and cannot trump the rule book.

[GForceLizard]

If the COF is like slice the pie from behind cover T1, T2, T3 in that order all paper. If you go back and make up hits on T2 after you shot T1, wouldn't that be a procedural for not using tactical priority? So if T2 is steel and you go back to make up the steel at T2 after shooting T3 you get a procedural.

[Steve Koski]

Wouldn't you need to say that all paper needs to be nutralized before moving to the next paper, to keep it defensively oriented? Engaged should be the same for all targets,

That would be ideal but vision and memory don't allow for this. That's just too much for the SO to track and remember. However, a steel target left standing is easy to detect and remember.

and the COF description should not and cannot trump the rule book.

Yes, that would also be ideal, but good luck enforcing that everywhere you go.

[Ben Stoeger]

The second way is to say that steel must be hit (if non-falling type) or fall (if falling type) to be "engaged." I prefer this, as it makes the sport more defensively oriented, as previously discussed.

Steve,

I take this to mean that you believe engaged and neutralized have the same meaning?

[Steve Koski]

I think I'm missing your point.

[Ben Stoeger]

I think I'm missing your point.

Well... If you shoot a steel until it is down, then it is neutralized.

But you said this: "...steel must be hit (if non-falling type) or fall (if falling type) to be "engaged." I prefer this, as it makes the sport more defensively oriented, as previously discussed."

Would then neutralized and engaged be the same thing?

[el pres]

I think I'm missing your point.

Well... If you shoot a steel until it is down, then it is neutralized.

But you said this: "...steel must be hit (if non-falling type) or fall (if falling type) to be "engaged." I prefer this, as it makes the sport more defensively oriented, as previously discussed."

Would then neutralized and engaged be the same thing?

I'm with Ben on this one. What are you talking about, and who is this Koski character anyway ??

You would not say that a paper target which was shot at 7-8 times but has no holes has been "not engaged" ??

You would not penalize a shooter for not engaging the target, you would panelize him for missing (not neutralizing) .

Not engaged is if the shooter ran by the target completely without taking a shot, whether intentional or not ...

Edited August 24, 2009 by P.Pres