Justsomeguy Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) I recently came upon a deal to acquire some primers for my sorely depleted supply so I could keep on shooting. I was referred by a fellow I had some dealings with to a friend of his who had some PMC primers in his possession and who did ongoing business selling them. I received the PMC primers last week, but due to my wife's niece visiting I was unable to load any up until yesterday along with a "control group" of rounds using the same cases and powder load but using CCI primers I still had. Today I shot them over a chronograph... 2 lots of 20 rounds, plus 2 lots of 20 of the CCI control group rounds. Here are the results: .40 S&W Berry 180grn HP 5.8grn Silhouette OAL 1.132 83 degrees outdoor temperature Aug. 12th, 2009 XD40 Tactical 5"bbl PMC primered rounds Av. Speed (20 shots) = 813.9 Hi = 909m Low = 671 ES = 238!!! SD = 54.2 (yuck!) Power Factor = 146.5 (This would be cool if I were going for MINOR... but nooooo... this was supposed to be MAJOR! Look at the CCI results below.) Same load, same lot of cases, loaded on the same day in the same hour with CCI primers below... CCI primered rounds AV Speed (20 shots) = 950.1 Hi = 967, low = 929 ES = 38 SD = 9.5 Power Factor = 171.0 This was such a great difference I couldn't believe it, so I ran it AGAIN with another series of 20 shot strings for both the PMC and CCI loaded rounds. PMC Primers again Av Speed (20 shots) = 146.9 Hi = 888, low = 648 ES = 240 (OMG!) SD = 55.8 (Is this really happening?) Power Factor = 146.9 CCI Primers again Av Speed (20 shots) = 950.7 Hi = 966, Low = 925 ES = 41 SD = 13.4 Power Factor = 171.1 Now, the thing is, if the PMC primers had merely produced those low velocities without such an extreme spread (ES), then I would be ok with it and just use them for minor loads or something... but spreads of 238 and 240 are not conducive to safe shooting! Plus, the really low velocity rounds which would occasionally pop off would stovepipe over the next round in the magazine and the swearing started! My XD Tactical has NEVER hung up a properly constructed round... EVER! So I don't know what these PMC primers were exposed to. They are supposed to be new manufacture just arrived from Russia with love and all that, but as the above data indicates, they certainly are NOT viable for using in any kind of serious endeavor. The CCI's on the other hand, I would trust with my life! Any comments or experiences with PMC or other primers showing these kinds of anomalies by any members here would be appreciated. Edited August 14, 2009 by Justsomeguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I thought PMC quite making/selling primers 5 or 6 years ago and closed that plant which was then bought by Wolf and that's where we're now getting those primers from? Maybe I'm really confused this morning but I didn't know "new manufacture" and "PMC" went together... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 (edited) I thought PMC quite making/selling primers 5 or 6 years ago and closed that plant which was then bought by Wolf and that's where we're now getting those primers from? Maybe I'm really confused this morning but I didn't know "new manufacture" and "PMC" went together... See... that's part of the mystery! I don't know if Wolf has reopened the plant using the old PMC name but under their management or if these are actually "left over" PMC someone found in the old plant and just shipped 'em to the US to get rid of 'em or what. My problem is I don't know what to do with 'em. I am going to open another 1000 box and try some in that one too with several powders, but if the same extreme spread figures persist then I will have 10,000 primers that are more or less worthless. Someone mentioned to me once that the "lead free" primers have a shorter shelf life... he surmised about 5 years. If these were actually old PMC production then they would be at the end of that shelf life. That's why I posted this... to see if anyone had any more information or had actually USED any PMC primers lately. There is no date on the primers that I can discern, nor does it have some message like "Use before XXYYZZ" or something like that. Edited August 14, 2009 by Justsomeguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Sounds like it will work just fine for practice ammo. Be happy you have 10,000 primers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Are they the PMC non-toxic? Those are notorious for erratic performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hi Steve... Yes, they are in the GREEN boxes and say "heavy metal free" on them. Shawn says use them but with an ES of 240 and SD in the 50's I don't know! I have asked around for information about the lead free ones, but other than you Steve, no one seems to have any opinion on them. I used the same amount of force to seat them that I do with CCI, but if you have some opinion on seating pressure I would love to hear it. The ones I used so far were all from one carton of 1000. I talked to the guy who sold 'em to me and he said try some from another box and maybe try another powder. I will try some from another 1000 count carton with Silhouette and maybe some Titegroup, though I am not fond of Titegroup... but I might try some minor loads just to see. Still, I like the Silhouette as it has been a very consistent and accurate powder in .40 for me. If I get the same results with another test I think I will try to return them and see if I can get some regular Wolf or something. I usually use CCI and have for years with no problems, but you know, you can't get any right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Do a search. There's another thread on the forum about PMC's heavy metal free primers. Not happy news there either. I would guess they're old stock made in Korea. The last thing Russians care about is removing heavy metals from their life. Besides, Wolf primers are the best I've ever used. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I think they will be fine for Minor or Steel loads. Load them up and shoot them as practice ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebg3 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Is Silhouette a flake, ball or extruded powder? Could be you could find a powder that may ignite easier and just use up the bad primers. Maybe a faster burning flake-type powder will work well enough for practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 (edited) Is Silhouette a flake, ball or extruded powder? Could be you could find a powder that may ignite easier and just use up the bad primers. Maybe a faster burning flake-type powder will work well enough for practice. Ramshot Silhouette is the reincarnation of WAP (Winchester Action Pistol) powder. It is a flattened spherical double based powder of small grain size and meters extremely well in my XL650 giving drops right on the selected weight. It is very consistent in velocity and produces VERY good accuracy in my guns of .40 caliber (Several XD's, XDm, Witness Match). It has a safe pressure curve, burns cleanly, produces very little smoke with lead bullets, has a soft recoil for the power factor, and tracks the sights nicely. If there is a more ideal powder for major in the .40 I haven't found it yet. It can also be used in 9mm and .45 as well as the popular revolver calibers. With decent primers like the CCI's I have, it ignites cleanly and usually produces standard deviations in the single figures at 171-173 power factor. I don't think the powder is at fault. I was going to experiment using some TiteGroup just to see if that would ignite any easier, but I am skeptical. I do not want to wind up with a bullet lodged in the barrel from an excursion into the low end of the ignition factor and it seems like a waste of components. Yet, I told the fellow who sold the PMC's to me that I would, so I shall. I will open another carton and try some from there hoping it was only one that had this problem. If, after my next experimental loads are consumed, I cannot get the performance required for safe shooting, I will take another tack. But really... more of you guys should try some Silhouette! Edited August 15, 2009 by Justsomeguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 (edited) Do a search. There's another thread on the forum about PMC's heavy metal free primers. Not happy news there either. I would guess they're old stock made in Korea. The last thing Russians care about is removing heavy metals from their life. Besides, Wolf primers are the best I've ever used. Seriously. HI again Steve... Well, the fellow who sold me these had some Wolf also and if, after more documentation, I find the PMC's still lacking, I will attempt to return them and get some Wolf instead. I don't know if he will do that yet, but I will not endanger myself or anyone else by uploading them to make major and getting one that works properly and destroying a gun and my hand, or conversely getting a squib and getting a bullet stuck in the barrel and having to drive it out and ruining my day (and perhaps a match) and perhaps dinging up a barrel. I won't sell them either. Either I solve this problem, get to return them, or they get oiled and burned. I shoulda got the Wolf in the first place. I keep kicking myself about trying something which was supposed to be safer, but in reality is more dangerous. I did do a search the other night but got nothing of interest to this topic. I will try again using the "heavy metal free" phrase and see what happens. Edited August 15, 2009 by Justsomeguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Is Silhouette a flake, ball or extruded powder? Could be you could find a powder that may ignite easier and just use up the bad primers. Maybe a faster burning flake-type powder will work well enough for practice. I would be very cautious using this approach. What do you think would happen if you just happened to get one of those PMC to ignite right, with the extra amount of fast burning powder in the case? Compensating for the lack of ignition and/or velocity with a faster burning powder or more powder could potentially cause disasterous results from an over pressure situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebg3 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Is Silhouette a flake, ball or extruded powder? Could be you could find a powder that may ignite easier and just use up the bad primers. Maybe a faster burning flake-type powder will work well enough for practice. I would be very cautious using this approach. What do you think would happen if you just happened to get one of those PMC to ignite right, with the extra amount of fast burning powder in the case? Compensating for the lack of ignition and/or velocity with a faster burning powder or more powder could potentially cause disasterous results from an over pressure situation. No, I would advise against an overcharge of a super fast powder. I just meant a flake powder with a faster burn rate(less powder in the case) may ignite easier and the primers could be used for practice. Going to an easier-to-ignite powder could result in a more thorough burn. Then again, you probably won't be able to get any consistancy out of those primers and it isn't worth risking a hang fire or delayed ignition and a serious pressure spike. Toss 'em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 I don't think anyone is going to do that. it is more of a consistency issue with his primers. I believe he just needs to work on a minor load and use it as practice or steel ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 I don't think anyone is going to do that. it is more of a consistency issue with his primers. I believe he just needs to work on a minor load and use it as practice or steel ammo. I agree. Use them to practice your accuracy. Slow and steady, listen to the sounds (one might be worse than others, leaving a squib halfway down). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 (edited) Could these be "bootleg" primers? Generally they are made in back alley shops with no quality control and on the fringe of society. The money goes to fuel the illegal kitten trade and the overthrow of the Madagascar government. Edited August 15, 2009 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 I don't think anyone is going to do that. it is more of a consistency issue with his primers. I believe he just needs to work on a minor load and use it as practice or steel ammo. Well... I was gonna try some minor loads with TiteGroup just to see if there was ANY hope of keeping the primers. Still, I think that they will NOT be consistent even with a faster powder, and they will be going back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 Could these be "bootleg" primers? Generally they are made in back alley shops with no quality control and on the fringe of society. The money goes to fuel the illegal kitten trade and the overthrow of the Madagascar government. Damn those "back alley" primer shops anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted August 19, 2009 Author Share Posted August 19, 2009 (edited) Ok... today I went out and chrono'd two groups of 20 (that's 40 total) over the instrument with PMC primers and 3.6grns of Titegroup. Winds up that it seemed to work! Was getting about 145ish power factors with both sets and SD's about 19 and 14 (the first group had one in the 780fps range, which was not duplicated in any other shots) so they averaged around 811fps or so. I was using a Rainier 180grn fp and a 16lb recoil spring in the XD40 Tactical but a stock striker spring set. Seemed to function pretty well but did fail to feed a couple of times when I was trying some more rapid fire later on (the wife was shooting those mostly though!) so I might have to change the bullet or mess with the springs some more, but the gun was really dry too. The accuracy was really good... better than I thought it would be. Once I got used to the hold on my standard 3" circle chrono target, I could cut a quarter sized hole at 15 yards with this load off the bench. So maybe these PMC's won't be a complete disaster. I will have to shoot about 10 more 20 shot groups to see how consistent these are, but if it holds up, I could try to shoot production with it, or heaven forefend, a little steel should a match come up. With that little Titegroup in the .40 case the gun didn't seem to get as hot as the major loads I had made up with the stuff once... ONCE! You could actually pick up the brass after a few seconds without swearing or burning your fingers too! I would love to try some lead with this load but the target would probably be "in obscura" for the smoke from the lead lube. Still, it was an interesting day... and the worst day at the range has always been better than the best day I ever had working, and this was not a bad day at the range at all! Edited August 19, 2009 by Justsomeguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 Ok... went to the range a couple days ago again and this time was trying 4.0grns of Titegroup to see if I could get a moderate load primered with the PMC primers to function the XD40 Tactical with the stock spring installed. Again, the Titegroup lit off well and produced velocities I was expecting, so the PMC "Green" or non-heavy metal primers seem ok with fast burning powders, or at least Titegroup. Below are the results... 40 SW 180grn Rainier FN 4.0grn TiteGroup OAL = 1.130 Speed in FPS 884 887 847 863 874 878 881 890 863 897 890 900 856 877 878 853 870 868 868 872 Average Speed 874.8 Power Factor 157.5 High 900 Low 847 Extreme Spread 53 Standard Deviation 13.9 Gun = XD40 Tac 5" Note: 82 degrees Aug. 26th, 2009 This was with the lighter recoil spring installed (I think Springer told me it's 16lb). Then I shot another 20 over the chrono to verify and got strikingly similar results using the stock recoil spring. I am not fond of the Rainier FP bullet though as once in a while it hangs up going into the chamber. It's kind of stubby with a very straight ogive as it comes away from the flat nose so I either have to load it a bit longer or go to a Berry or lead bullet either of which I have had good luck with feeding in all my guns. I am trying to get my hands on some WST to test with this primer and some lead bullets so they won't smoke much and see if the PMC Green primers will light it off. So Shawn was right and I will be able to use these primers for light loads and maybe steel should the opportunity present itself. Atta boy Shawn! As an aside, I did get in some more primers... this time Magtech, and I will be running some tests on those after the 3 gun guys clear out from the 4 day shoot they are having at my outdoor range (They got enough plywood set up there to build a couple of houses with!). So I'll probably start a new thread soon with some comparisons of the several types of primers I seem to have on hand now. Life is good!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I am glad the primers will work for you! Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterbenedetto Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Thank you for posting!! I will return all my PMC primers I have always shot CCI primers..will stick with them. I wonder how magtech are? SB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I believe Magtech is slightly harder than Winchester as far as I have read here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted August 29, 2009 Author Share Posted August 29, 2009 (edited) Thank you for posting!! I will return all my PMC primersI have always shot CCI primers..will stick with them. I wonder how magtech are? SB Well... these test were with the PMC GREEN label primers which are the ones that have no heavy metals in them (read no lead or mercury in the priming compound). The regular PMC I have not tried and they may be ok as far as I know. The lead based PMC should be the same as Wolf primers which are pretty good from all reports. I will be conducting some tests on the magtech sp starting next week. I'll probably post a new thread here about those as I get some data from the chrono with a couple of bullet types and powders. As an aside... Jerry Michelek uses Magtech ammo for all his shooting on "Impossible Shots" as well as for most of his world record attempts so I think they will work ok. Of course Jerry M has a 10lb trigger spring in HIS revolvers so they would probably fire up if frozen in liquid nitrogen anyway. Edited August 29, 2009 by Justsomeguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsquare Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I, too have been forced to use whatever primers I could lay hands on; tuned out to be some of the PMC "green" small pistol primers. After 500 40 S&W rounds using Unique under 175 gr cast without problems, I assembled some AA No.7 under 155 gr JHP. During the next 40 rounds, I had a half-dozen hang-fires, and two bullets lodged in the barrel that had to be driven out. I thought I had somehow contaminated the loads and disassembled the remaining, but now I wonder about the change in powders. My primers were purchased somewhere around July '09, and on the bottom of the box (1000) have a Lot No. of 9-04. Each individual box (100) have the same Lot. No. on the back. I urge extreme caution based on these posts. Had I completed a quick failure drill with the plugged barrel, I would have blown up my Sig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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