Stages that involve random chance

[Flexmoney]

Four plate racks, shoot all four. The next guy comes along and shoots all 4. You both have the same difficulties if you don't shoot "A" and he doesn't shoot "C" right?

Nope.

Whether you get an easy array first or not matters. It's called "changing gears". I design gear changes into stages all the time to trip up shooters. (but they all get the exact same presentation)

Shooters hit a hurdle when they have to shift from a high gear (like 3 targets evenly spaced), to a lower gear (like two targets and an unevenly spaced target). Your design would vary who starts in what gear.

If it ain't legal it ain't legal, but it's not because it isn't equitable.

It's not legal precisely because it is not equitable.

In this example, tell me which color isn't equitable, considering no one is color blind of course.

That one is obvious (without even looking at anything else). Red. If Red is drawn as the NS...then the shooter has an advantage. They don't have to transition out to either extreme.

Plus, red gives a start on the second plate and a shooting order straight across:

___skip___1___2___3___4___skip___1___2___3___4___skip___1___2___3___4___skip

That is way easier than:

___1___skip___1___2___3___4___skip___1___2___3___4___skip___1___2___3___skip

The first gives nice groups of 4 and only 2 skips.

The second give a group of 1, two groups of 4, a group of 3, and 3 skips.

I know which one I'd rather shoot, and which one I'd want my competition to have to shoot!

[Joe4d]

What rule states the stage has to be equal for all shooters ? I still cant find it.

[h2osport]

I would shoot it as long as I do not have to score it, set it up, or manage it.

Randy

[Flexmoney]

What rule states the stage has to be equal for all shooters ? I still cant find it.

You aren't suggesting that it should be any other way, right?

I mean...what would that test...if everybody shot a different stage?

If rule numbers are needed...

Here is one:

2.1.8.1 Target placement should be clearly marked on the target stands

for consistent target replacement. Target stands should be

securely fixed or their locations should be clearly marked on the

range surface.

and:

4.6 Range Equipment Failure and Other Issues

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of

paper targets,..

[uscbigdawg]

Well...all I've got to say about it is this. No where in the rules does it say I can't do it. If making someone transition off of one target because of a random hit of a color/whatever and the arrays are equal for everyone and the chance of getting a color is equal to everyone, until someone shows that it is illegal, you can expect them from here on out if I design a stage.

I hear a bunch of whining about, "it's not fair!". Well guess what, then let's all shoot the same gun, same ammo, static positions so there's no movement, everyone gets to practice the stage weeks in advance and let's not award a winner and just give everyone a nice certificate of participation when they're done 'cause we don't want to have someone not have an equitable share of the prize table and/or enjoy their day in the sun.

If the only argument is the "luck" of drawing one particular color being better than another and that it's not equitable to everyone...the odds of EVERY person getting that color is the same. So how is it not equitable?

Rich

[uscbigdawg]

Here is one:

2.1.8.1 Target placement should be clearly marked on the target stands

for consistent target replacement. Target stands should be

securely fixed or their locations should be clearly marked on the

range surface.

You're off your game today or something. This rule is about range/stage management not stage design. Heck, the primary paragraph leading to this rule is addressing the concern of shoot-throughs.

4.6 Range Equipment Failure and Other Issues

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of

paper targets,..

Again...nothing to do with what has been discussed. This is about range/stage/match management and it's addressing if a staple falls out (or is shot out) not stage design. Nice edit on the rule though. It goes on to talk about prematurely activated targets as well as steel falling. This rule DOES NOT address stage design at all.

Rich

ETA: I'll say it again. You step up to the line and roll the dice and you have the exact same chance of the last guy of rolling craps.

Edited August 11, 2009 by uscbigdawg

[Flexmoney]

Rich, I just don't know how you can say this isn't about stage design. I have shown, in every instance that he been presented here, that a different shooting challenge would be presented...by luck of draw.

If it's based on cards...then you have a random chance of shooting any of 4 different stages. It's simple enough to prove. Just draw up the stage diagrams for each of the 4 possible choices. They will all have the same props and shooting area, but they will be different. You'd just be moving the targets (displacing) around. But, I assure you that I'd shoot the stage differently for each of 4 iterations. In kgunz11's field course setup, the first thing for me would which targets I can get onto and off of in any given array. And, the walls there change the stages in a measurable way.

I'm not saying it isn't fun. I'm saying it not a competitively equal challenge.

I've shot these kind of variable stages at various type matches. At those matches...those of in the hunt to win (often in tight races)...came to realize that the outcome was influenced by the luck of the draw. What eventually happened (in the case of one such unaffiliated match) is that those that went there for the competition...they quit going there. They ran off the "competitors".

If it's fun-factor that I am after, I have lots of choices for that. Heck, I can get that with airsoft guns in the garage...and not even have to leave the house. I choose USPSA because it is fundamenatally about the competition.

-------------------------------

Folks...let me give you the litmus test. If you ever find yourself saying this, it's because you are looking for a way to justify poor stage design...because of your desire to do the thing you want to do.

"But, it's the same for everybody."

If these words come out of your mouth (or even if you find your mind thinking them) then stop. Realize that you are putting out a product that puts a fair test and equity into question. Stop yourself right there. You can do better.

[uscbigdawg]

Show me in the rules where it's not allowed? It doesn't exist. The equity comes in everyone getting a chance to get the exact same no shoot target.

Again...let's put our big boy britches on and shoot. Lord knows the rule book is about 4x the size it needs to be anyways.

Rich

ETA: Every stage is a memory stage.

ETA2: The people that bitch often do so if they didn't do well on this type of stage. You wouldn't hear one peep if they smoked it though. If they didn't show up again, that's fine with me. I want to be with folks that have fun and want to become better at every aspect of shooting and that includes target recognition and identification. No drones to hoser "freestyle" courses that are "freestyle" so long as it's "freestyle" in the style we say.

Edited August 11, 2009 by uscbigdawg

[rvb]

equity comes in everyone getting a chance to get the exact same no shoot target.

So it's equal because it might be the same?

I think these stages are fun... something a little different... a little test of walking and chewing gum at the same time... But I don't think they are legal.

-rvb

[Joe4d]

I totally agree that matches need to be equal for all, scores shouldn't be decided by chance, All stages may have an element of memory but as long as each person has to remember the same thing the is no chance involved, pick a card stages need to go the way of the dodo bird.

We can do with out the big boy pants comments, pointing out stages that dont follow the rules isnt whining it is about expecting to play a game a certain way, If you dont want to run it that way dont use the USPSA name.

[Flexmoney]

Rich,

I have showed you the rules.

Requiring a target stand to be in a fixed location...and requiring the target stand to be marked so that the target is always in the same spot on the stand. Isn't it clear enough?

If not, the next rule states that a reshoot will be issued if the target is somehow displaced.

Everybody shoots the same stage...exactly. To make that any more clear would require a bigger rule book.

[uscbigdawg]

Every stage has an element of memory? Let's try to be a little honest. The walking through the stage over and over isn't to make sure you look good on camera. It's to....put the stage in to....(say it with me)...memory.

A stage that presents in a physically different manner for some isn't fair. Got it and agree 10000%. Targets are all presented the same. Which ones you shoot and/or don't shoot changes with equal probability. Just like swingers, drop turners, etc. Unless you guys want to motorize them so that the arc length and speed are regulated to be the same for every shooter.

Guess we see why FTB3G sells out in .47 seconds and the Nationals....not so much.

Rich

P.S. Every stage is a memory stage.

P.P.S. Big boy britches!

[uscbigdawg]

Kyle...I love you like a 2nd or 3rd cousin, but both of your rules having nothing to do with stage design. That's range/stage maintenance.

The second does discuss design, but in the aspect of stage maintenance during a match when targets/stands are replaced (i.e. those little black lines we put on the sticks at the shoulders).

Come on...give me a real rule.....none exist.

Rich

ETA: The first rule you cited even says target REPLACEMENT...not placement. Clearly a maintenance issue, not a design issue. To add...in the second rules it says target displacement, not placement. Displacement = target falls off. Need to do some better research brotha...cousin...whatever.

Edited August 11, 2009 by uscbigdawg

[rvb]

If you set up an El-Prez, and mark them and draw a playing card for a no-shoot, then who has the advantage? The person who draws the no-shoot on the end (shorter transition between targets) or the person who draws the no-shoot in the middle (wider transition between targets)?

Very simple example, but what if the NS affects how far you lean around a wall? or how many steps into a shooting position?

The shooting challenge is not the same, imo. And that's what we are after. My big-boy britches say "fairly and equitably" across the butt. And so does 4.6.1.

-rvb

[ima45dv8]

No antagonistic tones will be tolerated.

Please post respectfully or don't post at all.

What a shame. There was some good discussion going here.

CLOSED.