Glock RTF Frame legality

[BigTinVA]

I really like the RTF. I'll be tickled when its legal for Production use.

Why do you say the RTF is not yet legal for production? Isn't it just another G17 or G22? Did they have to wait for all of the other generation frames to be blessed for production division use? I just put sights and a connector in my G17RTF last night, I'm ready to go.

Edited June 11, 2009 by BigTinVA

[00bullitt]

I really like the RTF. I'll be tickled when its legal for Production use.

Why do you say the RTF is not yet legal for production? Isn't it just another G17 or G22? Did they have to wait for all of the other generation frames to be blessed for production division use? I just put sights and a connector in my G17RTF last night, I'm ready to go.

It is not yet on the approved list

US Production Gun List from NROI

Edited June 11, 2009 by 00bullitt

[BigTinVA]

A G17 and G22 are specifically approved by model number. You are saying that the RTF frame makes it a different model? I'm not trying to be argumentative but I'm not sure that I agree.

The only Glock models that are listed as not legal are L models and C models are allowed providing that the barrel is non-ported and the other requirements are met. It mentions Short Frame (SF) versions, but the wording is not clear on whether they are approved or not. "Short Frame (SF) versions of models approved".

Again I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I bought a G17RTF to shoot in production and I want to make sure it is legal. I asked the same question in this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=987336

[00bullitt]

A G17 and G22 are specifically approved by model number. You are saying that the RTF frame makes it a different model? I'm not trying to be argumentative but I'm not sure that I agree.

The only Glock models that are listed as not legal are L models and C models are allowed providing that the barrel is non-ported and the other requirements are met. It mentions Short Frame (SF) versions, but the wording is not clear on whether they are approved or not. "Short Frame (SF) versions of models approved".

Again I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I bought a G17RTF to shoot in production and I want to make sure it is legal. I asked the same question in this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...st&p=987336

I'm just going by what Amidon and others had said back in March. I bought one as well to find out it was not yet legal.

I've got an email into JA right now to get an update on the status of the RTF legality.

I will post when I receive a response.

[BigTinVA]

I guess what I am trying to say is that the list of approved Glock handguns makes no distinction between frame generation differences. Take a G17 for example, I can compete with a GEN1, GEN2 or GEN3 frame...They are all just regular old G17's with different grip textures, right?

[00bullitt]

I guess what I am trying to say is that the list of approved Glock handguns makes no distinction between frame generation differences. Take a G17 for example, I can compete with a GEN1, GEN2 or GEN3 frame...They are all just regular old G17's with different grip textures, right?

Yeah....I took your same stance but was told it was a specific model and needed to be approved first.

[BigTinVA]

I've got an email into JA right now to get an update on the status of the RTF legality.

I will post when I receive a response.

Please do. I would love to have a definite answer.

[BigTinVA]

00bullitt,

Have you received any response from Mr. Amidon yet?

Thanks

[MemphisMechanic]

Even if it's not legal yet... How long does it take Glock to make/sell the required number of units? I have to imagine, as quickly as the M&P Pro's got it done, that the much-higher-volume G17 / G22 is going to get there even more quickly.

[SDM]

Does the frame or slide (like the SF's) have "RTF" on it? I don't remember the 22 I handled having the RTF designation. If it doesn't I would think it's already on the list.

[BigTinVA]

Does the frame or slide (like the SF's) have "RTF" on it? I don't remember the 22 I handled having the RTF designation. If it doesn't I would think it's already on the list.

That is exactly my point, my gun is only marked with the Glock logo and model "17", not model "17RTF" even though it does have the new RTF frame. The Glock 17 is specifically approved by model number on the list of approved handguns for Production Division. It is not like the M&P's that are marked M&P9, M&P9-L and M&P9-Pro, those are separate model numbers created by the manufacturer and there are differences between each of those models. That is not the case with the RTF framed Glocks, they are functionally equivalent to the other models with the same model numbers. There is no reference to any of the other generations of Glock frames, they are all just G17's.

[00bullitt]

00bullitt,

Have you received any response from Mr. Amidon yet?

Thanks

Not yet which is odd.....he usually responds in two days or less. I will follow up with him.

ETA: Just got a response and he said he is still waiting on Glock to submit the necessary request for approval for the new model to be added. Nothing has been done on Glocks behalf even after a request from John

Sounds like Glock is the hold up.

Edited June 18, 2009 by 00bullitt

[BigTinVA]

Just got a response and he said he is still waiting on Glock to submit the necessary request for approval for the new model to be added. Nothing has been done on Glocks behalf even after a request from John

Sounds like Glock is the hold up.

So Mr. Amidon confirmed that at this point the RTF frames are not approved for Production Division use. Interesting!

I am still surprised that they consider this a different model that needs to be submitted for approval. At least we now have the official answer from USPSA.

00bullitt, Thanks for taking the time to post the response that you received.

Edited June 18, 2009 by BigTinVA

[Nik Habicht]

It looks like, since they're specifically mentioned, USPSA considered the SF models to be separate as well.....

[Braxton1]

I will be at the factory on Monday or Tuesday. I will be sure to mention this to the Plant Manager.

[mpolans]

I guess what I am trying to say is that the list of approved Glock handguns makes no distinction between frame generation differences. Take a G17 for example, I can compete with a GEN1, GEN2 or GEN3 frame...They are all just regular old G17's with different grip textures, right?

Yeah....I took your same stance but was told it was a specific model and needed to be approved first.

I agree, and though I'm sure it's BENOS sacrilege to say it, but it might be time to consider a replacement for Mr. Amidon...too many illogical calls over the years.

Edited June 21, 2009 by mpolans

[uscbigdawg]

I would beg to differ. John's rulings, while maybe not favored, have been consistent and allow a basis for comparison.

The reality is that the pistol, while retaining the same name & number, is different. The grip is different and that's why it has to be re-listed with USPSA. That's the rules. We may not agree with them, heck...some of us don't agree with half the rules in the rule book, but at the same time, they ARE the rules (and procedures) for the game we play.

There's a pretty simple solution to fix it is to run for office and propose changes. Not criticizing any one in particular. Just saying that it's easy to find fault from the side lines.

Rich

[Nik Habicht]

The reality is that the pistol, while retaining the same name & number, is different. The grip is different and that's why it has to be re-listed with USPSA.

I don't know Rich --- I think the Gen 2 to Gen 3 lower change was a far bigger alteration than the difference between Gen 3 and RTF......

Were the third gen guns initially not accepted for limited?

[uscbigdawg]

Good question. I can't disagree, but know that initially there was some hulabaloo over the thumb area being a "recoil controlling device". Maybe not initially agreeable, but in a rigid interpretation could make sense.

Rich

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I would beg to differ. John's rulings, while maybe not favored, have been consistent and allow a basis for comparison.

The reality is that the pistol, while retaining the same name & number, is different. The grip is different and that's why it has to be re-listed with USPSA. That's the rules. We may not agree with them, heck...some of us don't agree with half the rules in the rule book, but at the same time, they ARE the rules (and procedures) for the game we play.

There's a pretty simple solution to fix it is to run for office and propose changes. Not criticizing any one in particular. Just saying that it's easy to find fault from the side lines.

Rich

By this reasoning, did John and the NROI specifically approve the Roupe grip as a separate model? Same exact pistol as a standard S_I, but the grip is decidedly different (much like the Glock RTF model).

[Nik Habicht]

I would beg to differ. John's rulings, while maybe not favored, have been consistent and allow a basis for comparison.

The reality is that the pistol, while retaining the same name & number, is different. The grip is different and that's why it has to be re-listed with USPSA. That's the rules. We may not agree with them, heck...some of us don't agree with half the rules in the rule book, but at the same time, they ARE the rules (and procedures) for the game we play.

There's a pretty simple solution to fix it is to run for office and propose changes. Not criticizing any one in particular. Just saying that it's easy to find fault from the side lines.

Rich

By this reasoning, did John and the NROI specifically approve the Roupe grip as a separate model? Same exact pistol as a standard S_I, but the grip is decidedly different (much like the Glock RTF model).

Different logic applies though: The Production list covers complete guns; the Limited list covers complete guns as well as components. Production allows only those modifications that are specifically approved; Limited prohibits a very few modifications.....

[BigTinVA]

I am curious as to why the US Production Gun List has not been updated to specifically exclude G17’s and G22’s with the RTF frame. Apparently John Amidon has ruled via email to 00bullitt that these frames are not approved at this time so he is aware of the new frame on guns that are specifically approved by model number. Why not make mention of it on the list? There is mention of the models with the SF frame on the list. I think it would avoid confusion and most likely quiet me down.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I would beg to differ. John's rulings, while maybe not favored, have been consistent and allow a basis for comparison.

The reality is that the pistol, while retaining the same name & number, is different. The grip is different and that's why it has to be re-listed with USPSA. That's the rules. We may not agree with them, heck...some of us don't agree with half the rules in the rule book, but at the same time, they ARE the rules (and procedures) for the game we play.

There's a pretty simple solution to fix it is to run for office and propose changes. Not criticizing any one in particular. Just saying that it's easy to find fault from the side lines.

Rich

By this reasoning, did John and the NROI specifically approve the Roupe grip as a separate model? Same exact pistol as a standard S_I, but the grip is decidedly different (much like the Glock RTF model).

Different logic applies though: The Production list covers complete guns; the Limited list covers complete guns as well as components. Production allows only those modifications that are specifically approved; Limited prohibits a very few modifications.....

Nik,

That makes sense - thanks for your thoughts.

Doug

[SDM]

If I show up at a match with a NIB 22 with the RTF frame what rule excludes it from production? It has "22" on the slide and 22 is on the list.

[00bullitt]

There have been some very valid points brought up about the legality of the RTF frame being used in Production. I have compiled them all and again sent John another email asking him to explain the logic and reasoning behind the RTF not yet being legal under the current rules. I will post the response here when I receive it.