rtr Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Ok I understand how IPSC scoring works, that's not my question. My question is when looking at the results, how do I compare myself to other shooters. Specifically I'm mostly interested in how I did relative to other shooters in my class (production), so does that mean I should compare based on the production scores (not for the whole field). If so what do I compare, percentage, points, time, etc.? What is considered close? For instance I finished I believe 2 or 3% behind a particular shooter in the production standings, is that pretty close? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 rtr, production is a division. your class would be gm,m,a etc. to figure your percentage compared to the winner of production. take the winner's match points and divided your match point by his points, then mulitply the result by 100 to give you your percent of the match winner. the production winner will always receive a 100%. you are only competing with other production competitors don't worry about anyone else in the match. hope this helps. lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 rtr, Your question is pretty broad, so I'll try and cover all. 1 - you should compare other people in your division and in class. 2 - comparing points or percentage.....good to look at both. In your example you talked about finishing 2 or 3% behind the guy in front of you. Looking at just percentage can be mis-leading. 3% of a 500 point match is only half of what 3% would be for a 1000 point match. Total points will generally give you a better idea of how close things were. What many members here will look at is the total percentage of points they shot for a given stage. Generally you want to be in the 90-95% range. Lower means you went to fast or need trigger control work. Time for a given stage compared to another shooter will teach you that you are loosing time somewhere, draw, movement, reloads...etc. I don't know what class you are in, and it really doesn't matter, but I would first set a goal of no pentalies. No no-shoots, foot faults, mikes. Once you are consistently shooting a clean match verify that you are shooting 90-95% of the total possible points for a given stage. Once you have reached this level you can start to study better shooters, reading BE book, and learn where you are lossing time. Now you can work on all thses at once, just don't get so wrapped in one area that you loose sight of the others. Hope I helped.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 PaulW: Great explanation. Mind if I e-mail it out with the next results from our club match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Thanks Ron. Use as you see fit my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I just compared my Infinity Open stage scores and times to the stage winners in my division. I'm looking at the available points as the benchmark score and the winning time as the benchmark speed. Stage 01: 95.71% points (Miss), 31.34% slower than JJ Stage 02: 97.22% points, 33.71% slower than Travis Stage 03: 95.55% points, 24.84% slower than JoJo Stage 05: 94.37% points (Miss), 29.91% slower than Max Stage 06: 94.05% points, 22.18% slower than Max Stage 07: 93.60% points, 36.99% slower than Max Stage 08: 98.75% points, 30.06% slower than Max Stage 09: 96.11% points, 15.82% slower than Max Stage 10: 93.75% points (strong hand), 51.66% slower than Angus I was astonished at shooting 94% and 95% of available points on the two stages with Misses. Of course, that's before the penalty deduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 So Erik, what have you learned from your data? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 He needs to shoot the same amount of points 30% faster to win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 That is very interesting data. Without offending you, what is your classification compared to the stage winner in every stage you show? If you are for instance, an A shooter and the guys who won the stages are GM's, is there usually a 20/35% time difference in A vs GM shooting the same stages? It appears that you are getting the points to contend to win (for the most part). What is it that they do/did that you need to improve 30% on to gain that additional speed, beside the obvious strong hand acquisition/transition. I have to say, good shooting regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 at big matches, I always look at both percentage of stage winner and at ranking. The two provide often supplementary information. At such a big match, eventually, you are interested in ranking high relative to other shooters, not really in getting to w/i x% of the match/stage winner's score. Someone might get lucky and totally blow a stage out, leaving everyone else with <80%... I find that "cleaning a match" is not good top priority item for me anymore, shooting to my own ability is a much better goal. When I "cleaned" it, I shot too slowly and carefully. A couple of mikes are o.k., and avoiding them should not be the all-encompassing match strategy.. I am always amazed just *how* much the top dogs miss. Our very own Phil mowed down 8 poppers at a Nationals stage with 14 rds, and still shot a good score, it's just how quickly this is all done... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Loves2shoot, LOL! I don't know if I learned anything. It's another way of looking at the results. I was mostly interested in my score, because I get upset at dropping 8 points with a foo-foo gun, when I shouldn't be upset at shooting 95%. Expressing my time as a percentage slower than the stage winner was an eye-opener. Even on stage 9, which I smoked, 15 seconds to Max's 13 seconds, that's 15%. That's huge, but I'm not in contention for the overall win, so I shouldn't care. It just shows how much more room there is for improvement. I've got about 5% room to improve in accuracy and 30% room to improve in speed! tightloop, I'm in A class. I was never the fastest A on a stage, but I was close a few times, and I was top A a few times when my speed was near the fastest, because I had the points. Whatever Max & company do to be 30% faster is a whole 'nother topic. Also, I should say, some of that lack of speed was actually due to lack of accuracy: missing steel. Detlef, a clean match might've netted me the class win. I'm just not going to be happy until I stop tossing these mystery Misses and stop having disaster stages. I'm getting closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Erik, Sounds like you learned a ton man. You obviously have the accuracy thing down, except for a few mystery mikes. The mystery mikes IMO you can toss in the "got lazy" category. We all do it, but we should not accept it. Back when I was in A class I was really in a rut. After a big match, Florida Open, I decided that I was really going to start to push the speed envelope. I pushed myself beyond what I ever dreamed my potential was. Then I learned where I had to slow down and where I could burn it up. I forget who has the tag line by C. Bradley, but it says "Shoot slow, do everything else fast". I love that line. I would change the word slow to shoot as fast as you can see, but it's still a great line. I seldom shoot over 95% on a stage. I could but it would be to slow. Detlef....you stated "I find that "cleaning a match" is not good top priority item for me anymore, shooting to my own ability is a much better goal." I would have to disagree with you on this one. Don't you have the ability to shoot a clean match? Of course, so I guess I don't understand your point on this one. Yes we all have mikes that we have to accept, however nothing kills confidence or a match faster than misses IMO(especially ones we did not call). In your example you talked about shooting steel, which is a little different because you usually make those shoots up right away. But a mike on paper is a killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Maybe you should examine the manner in which you practice. I have a bud, everytime we would shoot, no matter what we had set up; the first run, he shot it fast as he could, then he'd look at points down and try to find a way to shoot the same thing with (at that time 90%) of possible points at the same speed. If he cleaned the drill, he would spend the remainder of the practice session working on things to increase the speed. He did this at every session. Worked for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Paul, what class are you? Yes, of course, once you get to B or A, you can clean a match. But shooting clean is not happening in isolation, this is IPSC, and points per time score. So if you called a miss on a slow swinger, you might be better of swallowing the mike and moving on. The awareness of points per time is essential for a good score in IPSC. Sometimes it simply is *time to shoot*, no matter what your sight picture looks like. On a 13 HF stage, a mike is equivalent to only about a second. Any more time that that spent on making up the mike is lowering your score. At big matches, we often encounter *timed* targets (by means of ourselves moving or the targets moving). I uphold that shooting *clean* is not a good overriding strategy for those matches. Maximizing your score is. Avoiding screw-ups is great, but at the top, they know how to *deal* with their screw-ups so to maximize score. Even Eric G and Robbie throw mikes in big matches. Are you saying it's because they are unable to shoot the match clean? Hardly...it's because they shoot to maximize their overall score, and they know how to do it. It's not accidental, but a conscious decision on their behalf that this will include a few mikes and N/S penalties... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Detlef, Well said, and I agree for the most part. I hope we did not confuse rtr's original question. I'm glad you said that is you "called a mike", that means you are following the proper fundementals. I made the mistake a few years ago at a Fl state match trying to get points on a drop turning target, it would have been ok if I could have shoot two A's, well I had a C and a no-penatlty mike. Big mistake and that may have cost me the match. Another point is how often do you see 13 hf stages? Not very often around here. But your point is well made and I understand where you are coming from now. But a general rule of thumb is to shoot clean, that is a no-brainer. I love the stages where everyone is breaking out the calculators to figure out hit factors vs possible points. And answer your first question, I am a GM way down on the food chain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Detlef, OK, I think we see where you're coming from now. On stage 1 I ran dry on the last target and left it Alpha-Mike. I'm not going to reload and rack the slide (2-3 seconds) to pick up the Miss just so I can say I shot a clean match. But on stage 5 I had an Alpha-Mike on a very close hardcovered target. There was no second hole, a complete mystery mike. Like Paul said, it's a total confidence killer. Those are the misses I want to avoid in order to shoot clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 No, I don't think you really do. I am not only talking about the called misses consciously accepted, I am also talking about accepting a certain amount of risk, purely in the interest of time. In a sense I am talking about statistics. They (the very top dogs) do *not* go for a 100% clean match (Paul's point where i start from), they go for a shooting pace resulting in a 1-2% failure rate. And so should we all, I think... You can make the exact same qualitative argument about shooting all As as opposed to As and Cs. A shooting pace where you shoot only As is simply not going to be fast enough for anyone of any capability to maximize their score in IPSC. You have to accept a certain number of Cs, and you have to know what it looks like and feels like when you shoot for your personal best hit factor. *All As* (or *no mikes or N/S*) is simply not an optimal strategy or state of mind, otherwise our top dogs would do it, because they surely could if they wanted to... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Detlef, I disagree. It is far different to factor in that you won't shoot all A's, thus the 90-95% range comes in that a lot of people use for a judge. I realy have a hard time believing that the Top Dogs don't go for a clean match. Anyone that likes research I would love to know if the HOA shooter had any pentalties at all during big matches over the last year or so. The pentalties for a C hit or even a D hit, (which I accept but still hate) are far, far less than having a miss altogether. It does not take that much longer to shoot an A than it does to have a miss. And much less for a c or d hit. I believe if you accept a miss you are really loosing out on your true potential. I don't mean that we all won't have them, because we all do. But rather if we just accept that it's part of the grand scheme, thats where we are limiting ourselves by not trying to improve that aspect of our game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 We must agree to disagree. If that one mike you have is part of your big plan, then there's no reason to get mentally upset about it. You have, without any doubt as GM, the capability to go out and shoot an IPSC match clean, possibly even with all As. You deliberately choose to not do it. Why? Explain yourself... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Watch the top-dogs shooting the Steel Challenge. An extra shot or two (or three or four if things go bad) per stage is pretty much normal for most of them (why I like watching the SS shoot steel-- shows they're human ). I know they could hit those plates every single time if they took enough time, but the dictates of speed require them to hang it right on the edge of all-hits. What's interesting is when they have a real scored miss. Todd may have lost the match on Outer Limits with a missed plate. He called it right on the edge and left anyway.. later he said his bullet couldn't have been more than an inch outside the plate. FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I have been doing statistics for two clubs for three years and I have tried to learn target math by watching how shooters deal with time vs. hits and comparing the scores of the top local shooters. In all of that time, I have almost never seen a stage won (high overall) by a shooter who had more Mikes, no-shoots, or penalties than the next guy down the list. I know there are times when the best way to do damage control is to just move on rather than waste an inordinant amount of time making up a shot. Two examples would be leaving a position then backing up to pick up a Mike, or waiting for a swinger to reappear. However, I find it very hard to believe that missing a target altogether is a regular part of a GM shooter's game plan. If GM shooters actually miss on purpose, other than to game out a poorly designed stage, I would really like to hear about the logic behind that. I really hope Brian, Jack, etc. chime in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I think Detlef is saying you've got to accept the occassional Miss like you have to accept the occasional D and the more frequent C. A Miss would be easier to accept if I could shoot like my hair was on fire. But I shoot slow and sure, and one or two Misses in a 10 stage match hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I'm sure you guys are patient with people like me willing to "master" target math (and forgive the thread drift, btw): So is this what you guys are basically saying? I have a 100 pt stage and from experience I know I can shoot it in 10sec flat. That makes it a 10 HF for me. Now, I also know that I can shoot this same stage in 8 sec flat but WITH some C's (and since I'm confident in my abilities, no more than 10 pts down ). Computing from an extreme score of 10 pts down with an 8sec run that would be....(90/8) = 11.25HF, right? An idiot like me can see that 11.25 HF is way better than a clean run at 10 sec. HOWEVER, when I shoot it for an 8 sec run my PRIMARY objective is still shooting all A's. It's just that I've already factored in my C's in the equation w/c makes an 8 sec run with higher potential for points down worth it. Is this right or am I totally out of the window with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Detlef my firend we can agree to disagree. I am getting ready for Georgia State and will respond to your last question when I return because it may take some typing to clearly state my opinion. Have a great weekend, see ya on Monday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 mcoliver: Now take your 8 second run and turn one of those C hits into a Mike and you will see what I am babbling about, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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