Flexmoney Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 OK... I try not to shoot with a cadence, neither does Steve Anderson. Earlier in the year I shot a Bill Drill (at 7-8y), here are my splits. .18 .15 .15 .15 .15 I was suprised to see all of the .15's. I think that the first split, the .18, was a result of me "confirming my sights". I believe that the relative slowness of the first split was me gathering more imput from the sights than I might have needed. (I was still "seeing" for every split.) I am pretty sure that I was on the edge of my ability at that time. A few weeks later, Anderson put away his Open blaster and strapped on his Production gun. He ran a Bill Drill at similar distance. His draw time and total time were nearly the same as mine. His splits were spread out though, between .13 and .18 seconds. I know he was watching his sights, letting his vision control the shooting. In my case, it seems I was seeing the sights on target at a .15 rate...I need to see faster. In Steve's case, I would say that he had some issues with grip tension...returning the sights to target at a different rate for each shot (which makes some sense, since he hadn't been shooting his Production gun much). I think all of his splits could be in the .13 range. I gotta wonder if I fell into a cadence though. I don't think so, I was seeing the sights. but, maybe, i was seeing too much of them? Anyway...no real tip here. Just some obsevations that I found interesting and have been wanting to get out there for discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Kyle, After shooting about a hundred bazillion Bill Drills, and noticing that my first break was always longer than the successive ones (if I didn't freeze up or do anything stupid), I decided to video tape a few, from the side with a blank white wall behind the gun that had a bunch of horizontal pieces of tape, one above the other, each a couple inches apart. The very first thing I noticed was that the gun always recoiled higher on the first shot than it did on successive shots. So I stopped thinking or worrying about that. It's soooo easy to become trapped by cadence, especially when shooting more than one shot on one target. Just before a string, really work to clear your mind of all preconceived notions regarding speed, vision, what you should or shouldn't do or see, and just will or intend the gun to get to the where it needs to go as quickly as possible (first shot), and then keep it returning to the same spot as quickly as possilbe. Clear your mind so that is all that's there; then, witness what happens while it is happening. Make sure you don't start from a conclusion. If you feel as if you're seeing "too much," that means you aren't seeing enough. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 "If you feel as if you're seeing "too much," that means you aren't seeing enough." That's gonna be racking my brain for the next few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Ok it's been almost a week and the only interpretation I come up with for "If you think you are seeing too much you're not seeing enough." is: A Bill Drill should be shot with a Type 1 focus-index, feel. For me right now I'm probably seeing my front sight on 4 of the 6 shots, and really I probably shouldn't be seeing it at all. So if I'm not seeing my front sight at all I'm seeing the whole target/ gun realtionship, is this what I'm not seeing enough of? Or was this "seeing too much not seeing enough" much broader than a Bill Drill? TomB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 It's wierd, when I shoot bill drills, sometimes I almost feel like I'm alternating between a Type 1 focus and a Type 3 focus. Maybe it's if you think you are seeing too much, you are making a conscious effort to try? Or maybe I'm just totally off and making no sense at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I have been reluctant to chime in because sometimes I feel like I am really showing my ignorance. Well, here goes. Keep in mind that this is a personal thing and it's hard to explain. First off, I think it's real easy to fall into the trap of over analyzing something as simple as a Bill Drill. I don't shoot many Bill Drills but I have found what works for me if I just want raw speed. I see the sights through the entire lift and return cycle. We all know what that looks like, the front sight bouncing up and down, returning to the notch just before the next shot breaks. I shoot without consiously willing the pistol to do anything, but I am very aware of the visual inputs with my attention directed to fire control. Maybe that's all wrong, but I am managing some pretty impressive times. Try it and tell me if I am all washed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Clear your mind so that is all that's there; then, witness what happens while it is happening. Make sure you don't start from a conclusion. I shoot fastest when I do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 Opps...I meant to come back to this earlier. Brian, I wonder if that first split is us "tuning in"? After the first...we know, so we can kick it up a notch (and properly drive the gun)? I think this might have something to do with Eric's question on transition differences between single shots and doubles. Ron, I think we return the gun automatically. My "maybe I was seeing too much" comment was me looking back...in an attempt to find the answer to "why?". During the shooting...well, I felt like I shot it about as good as I could at that moment. I hesitate to say that because I don't want to impose any limits on myself...or assume that my shooting didn't have any holes. The .15 splits were great for me and my gear. I felt like I was on. I was suprised by all those splits being the same though...so I was looking for holes. Twix, I think it is a good idea to see the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Flex: Yeah, I know the gun returns on it's own. What I am trying to say is I don't try to do anything, the gun drives itself. My vision confirms my index and I subconsiously react to the visual inputs while my attention is directed into my fire control. It's hard to explain. I haven't done anything real spectacular but I am getting Bill Drills of 1.75 and less with my sloth like draw. Is it possible that the pistol recoils higher on the forst shot because the body is conditioned to respond to the timing after the shot breaks? I am trying to learn something here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 The bill drill is its own animal...part feel, part vision, part tension. I tend to only do them when I feel I need some reassurance that I am "fast." Or, when I want to push the ragged edge a bit further. I do know that I have done better with irons than with the dot. Maybe I have more to prove to myself there. I agree with Ron that the best ones just happen. That aligns well with Brian's idea that they are a great relaxation test. It remains a great way to combat the dreaded trigger freeze. All this tension comes from ego... It's also possible that the Evil "big ammo" dreamed it up to drain our wallets. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 You say that you think you are seeing too much. Can it be that you are seeing a lot, of a small part of what is happening? Because your focus is narrow, you might be seeing less than what you could? Just spitballing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 Ron, I think that we aren't consciously returning the gun to the target, but that we likely are driving it on a subconscious level. I think that might account for what I experienced, and what Brian says is natural, on the first shot being slower...with the gun recoiling highier. After that first shot...we know the feel...and we adjust automatically. I'll bet that any tension would screw this up (not to mention the effect that it would have on trigger control). Your: ...I subconsiously react to the visual inputs while my attention is directed into my fire control. That sounds like the same thing I am trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 From the point of total "immersion" - when will, actor, and action become one activity - there is "no one" left to discriminate, much less judge. be Paraphrasing from Bruce Lee: When a runner is running as fast as he can, he should not feel as though he could or should be running faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Two weeks ago I closed my eyes, drew and fired one from five yards 10 times. 9 A's, one C. Back to 7 yards, 5 a's, 5 c's. 10 yards, all 10 on paper. 15 yards, 1 on paper, 9 mikes. This was all cold, my first shots at a practice. I had been working on really seeing my sights, follow through, trying to call my shots in the weeks leading up to this. Being able to hit the target from 7 yards in with my eyes closed was very confidence inspiring. I'm not calling it a break through yet, but it is helping me define the types of focus and when to apply them. It was also why I said maybe I shouldn't even be seeing my front sight on a Bill drill ( if I can do it with index and feel). I'll' have to play with this a little. Bill Drills are so much fun anyway. Tom Bergman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 You can't not see your sight on a Bill Drill. Even if you are totally target-focused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 Twix, You are kinda lumping your index in with the types of sight focus. I feel you need to keep them seperate. Having a good index is vital. Sometime I can completely trust my index, I can take the shot and not wait for a super-firm input from the sights. But...and this is important...I still see the sights, and read them, as the gun is going off. I'll break the shot with what I think most call a "flash" sight picture. To be fast (and accurate) you gotta know. How can you know if you don't read the sights? I don't think you can just trust feel. The feel will change from day to day...moment to moment. (Re-reading that...it sounded kinda preachy. Not my intent...just discussion.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Thanks Eric and Flex. Next time I get to practice I will shoot the Bill Drill eyes closed vs. seeing each shot. TommyB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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